DMM Alpha Trad vs. DMM Thor

So I'm building my rack for the upcoming Spring - it is still several months away but wanna be ready :)

I decided to buy DMM Alpha Trad biners for all my alpine draws (rope end!) but I'm running into quite a large bill for all my shiny new gear :) So far I bought 4 gunmetal DMM Alpha Trad biners each for $11 but can't find any more for the same price and am reluctant to pay $15 for each additional biner. So I thought to look at other DMM biners, for example at DMM Thor which is equally praised online but costs much less. I haven't seen Thor in person so if anyone has owned or tried both DMM Alpha Trad and Thor and can tell me what makes Alpha Trad worth for paying more, I'll be very appreciative (Thor is 2g "heavier" but it's negligeble, really, and strength-wise it's ever stronger than Alpha Trad).

Again, these will be the rope end of my alpine draws (for bolt/gear end, I have colorful DMM Alpha Trad and WC Heliums but want to buy one color - gunmetal - for rope end, and both DMM Alpha Trad and DMM Thor do come in gunmetal color).

If you want to suggest any other DMM biners, feel free. At this time I want to stick to the DMM brand for simplicity so I won't be buying any other brand biners (no affiliation whatsoever, just personal choice).

Let the fun begin!

I'll start the fun by asking, why do you care which side is the rope/gear side if you are doing trad? I doubt you'll be clipping and weighting enough metal to have it make a difference if you are actually climbing trad in a place that is gear and not terrifyingly runout trad bolts. I found the Alpha trad to be a bit bulky to rack, but not a deal breaker. The nose on the thor will bother you eventually, but not that much.

John Clark wrote: I'll start the fun by asking, why do you care which side is the rope/gear side if you are doing trad?

Because the best practice is to know which biners are used where, and to pick and stick to it. This is the safest when dealing with gear so I want to stick to the safest practices. I don't want to get into more discussion about it, MP is full of such discussions. I want to stick to the classes I'm taking and the books I'm reading (Trad Climbing Basics by vdiffclimbing is one of those books).

Thanks for your answer though!!!

To John’s point: WHY is this the best practice?  IS this the safest, in this context?  It is important that you know the rationale behind a best practice.

I love my Alpha Trad!
The nose is well protected from snagging and side rubbing which could open the gate, not as protected on the Thor.
1g lighter than the Thor, whatever, same weight.
Great clipping action in the hand.
I guess the classic straight back of the Thor makes it less prone to levering off pins from the rock.

I also pack a couple draws with revolver biners on one end for redirecting the rope at belays or tight spots where I don't want to use a sling.

Hey, Leliko

I use alpha trads on my rope end (and phantoms on my gear end), but I think the alpha trads are just alright, but your mileage may vary.

I definitely like having a snag-free carabineer on the rope end, but at this point there are plenty of carabineers with this feature.  For me, the downside to this carabineer is that I constantly get my fingers stuck between the gate and the nose when clipping the rope in.  I haven't had this problem nearly as much with other carabineers, but for some reason my knuckles get stuck a lot with the alpha trads.  I probably need to approach clipping a little differently to avoid this, but I'm stubborn.  I would assume that this problem is mostly a result of the way I clip my rope and my hand size, but I would think my hands are totally average in size, so maybe the shape of the carabineer is also at play here.

The other issue I can see with these carabineers is that they seem to wear pretty fast, and not necessarily in the expected spot in the basket where the rope runs.  I've noticed the wear on a couple of mine isn't always on the basket, against the spine, like where an offset D carabineer is supposed to direct the rope.  I see wear across a wider length of the basket, which makes me think that the offset D design doesn't work particularly well for this carabineer.

Also, I got my alpha trads for around $6 and change, and I probably would not pay full retail for them.  Though, on the flip side, if you definitely want a snag-free carabineer, and you like the alpha trads you have, I'd say just spend the extra money and get them.  In my experience, if I settle on one product because it's cheaper, I always end up going back and buying the more expensive one I like better.

Ted Pinson wrote: To John’s point: WHY is this the best practice?  IS this the safest, in this context?  It is important that you know the rationale behind a best practice.

Excerpt from "Trad Climbing Basics" book by vdiffclimbing:

"You should have a gear carabiner and a rope carabiner, just like you would with normal quickdraws.
The sharp edges of bolts or other fixed hardware can notch the gear carabiner. This can damage your rope if you swap them over. Using different coloured carabiners makes it easy to distinguish between them."

You can get the Trads for GearExpress for around $11. ​http://www.gearexpress.com/dmm-alpha-trad-carabiner.html​​​

Leliko Mana wrote:

Excerpt from "Trad Climbing Basics" book by vdiffclimbing:

"You should have a gear carabiner and a rope carabiner, just like you would with normal quickdraws.
The sharp edges of bolts or other fixed hardware can notch the gear carabiner. This can damage your rope if you swap them over. Using different coloured carabiners makes it easy to distinguish between them."

The problem with this is 95+% of your gear side draws are going to be clipped into the slings of the cams you place. If youre hammering a bunch of pitons, I guess that figure would change. I carry about 4 "hardware" biners for nut wires (I just steal them off the top of my sport draws), and also have what I need for bolted anchors for my cordelette. Just try to minimize you're soft-goods biners mixing with your bolts and metal wire biners. Pretty simple. 

Snag free everything will make you not hate life in a bunch of scenarios. Go with the clean nose. BD OZ is always on sale for their cosmetic 2nds for $6ish. I like BD OZ and the Alpha Trad/Light biners. 

Leliko Mana wrote:... so if anyone has owned or tried both DMM Alpha Trad and Thor and can tell me what makes Alpha Trad worth for paying more, I'll be very appreciative...

The reason for the increased cost of the Alpha Trad over the Thor is the snag-free nose on the Alpha Trad.  Snag Free noses like that are very dificult to manufacture, and require more tooling, plus they have a much higher reject rate, all of which bumps the price up.  If you don't need the snag free nose, there is no reason not to go with the Thor.

Mark Thesing wrote: You can get the Trads for GearExpress for around $11. http://www.gearexpress.com/dmm-alpha-trad-carabiner.html

Wonderful! They must have just put them on sale as it wasn't there yesterday! Thank you!

Alpha Trads and Heliums are great for rope ends, but I don't like them on the gear end because the nose can be too large to clip some fixed gear. YMMV depending on where you climb.

Leliko Mana wrote:

Excerpt from "Trad Climbing Basics" book by vdiffclimbing:

"You should have a gear carabiner and a rope carabiner, just like you would with normal quickdraws.
The sharp edges of bolts or other fixed hardware can notch the gear carabiner. This can damage your rope if you swap them over. Using different coloured carabiners makes it easy to distinguish between them."

Let me know when you have biners that are so notched that you are scared for your rope (a consumable).

Briggs Lazalde wrote: Why do u want silver biner on colorful rope end and colored biner on silver bolt end? Most draws come pre-manfactured with the color biner being on the colorful rope end and silver biner sits loose for silver bolt end.

I set up most of mine so that blue=bolt, red=rope.

John Clark wrote: I'll start the fun by asking, why do you care which side is the rope/gear side if you are doing trad?

I'll bite - for my tripled up alpines I put a snag-free biner on the "rope" end and a tiny cheap biner on the "gear" end. Having one snagless biner makes it easier to extend, especially with skinny slings that a hooked gate will grab. Also, considering the snagless wiregates are more expensive - by the time I'm at 8-12 draws, that means saving a lot of money.

Jack Servedio wrote:

I'll bite - for my tripled up alpines I put a snag-free biner on the "rope" end and a tiny cheap biner on the "gear" end. Having one snagless biner makes it easier to extend, especially with skinny slings that a hooked gate will grab. Also, considering the snagless wiregates are more expensive - by the time I'm at 8-12 draws, that means saving a lot of money.

Okay, so I do have a mix of snagless and hooked biners, but mostly I have neutrinos that I got for cheap on sales/through friends/booty. I also have 10-15 OZ biners. The OZ are nice, I'll grant that, but the only times I have been irritated by the hooked biners is when I am cleaning draws off bolts while following aid or cleaning a sport route. I disagree that snag-free biners make a huge difference to most entry level trad climbers. I rarely have experienced a position on 5.9 or under in yosemite where I don't have a comfortable one hand stance with which to place pro and deal with any snafus. Moral of this story, OP lives in SF and can probably afford to kit out completely with sang free, ultra-light biners and this is a moot thread.

If you're really particular about which side is the rope end or gear end, you can just mark one end with a piece of tape to delineate it.  My friend has alpha trads for his Alpine draws and uses this method.  All that aside, Camp nano 22s and photons are the bee's knees for Alpine draws.

John Wilder wrote:

I can’t stand notched biners on my harness- keylock all day every day for every carabiner. 

Also, in the many many years I’ve been climbing and working in the industry, I’ve never heard of having different biners for rope and gear end. Yes for that for sport draws because you’re always pulling on them with bolts, but never for trad.

Some day I'll have key locks for everything, but as I replace my my notched biners one by one, I distribute them "rope side" since its easier to quickly slide a key lock off a tripled up skinny sling than a notched biner.

If money was no object, I'd have matching, color coded, key locks. But for now, that seems like the most effective place to use my limited key locks.

Seems reason enough for me.

John Clark wrote:

Okay, so I do have a mix of snagless and hooked biners, but mostly I have neutrinos that I got for cheap on sales/through friends/booty. I also have 10-15 OZ biners. The OZ are nice, I'll grant that, but the only times I have been irritated by the hooked biners is when I am cleaning draws off bolts while following aid or cleaning a sport route. I disagree that snag-free biners make a huge difference to most entry level trad climbers. I rarely have experienced a position on 5.9 or under in yosemite where I don't have a comfortable one hand stance with which to place pro and deal with any snafus. Moral of this story, OP lives in SF and can probably afford to kit out completely with sang free, ultra-light biners and this is a moot thread.

Moral of your post is that DMM Alpha Trads are completely snag-free and ultra-light biners? Well, great then. I did buy 6 more online today, thanks to the fellow climber who found them discounted on gearexpress.com.

Thanks, everyone, for your valuable comments!!! This thread is closed but there are plenty of others to have fun at! See you there :)

You’re obviously new here.  The thread is over when MP deems it finished; yours has only just begun.  I predict 6 more pages.

John Clark wrote: I'll start the fun by asking, why do you care which side is the rope/gear side if you are doing trad? I doubt you'll be clipping and weighting enough metal to have it make a difference if you are actually climbing trad in a place that is gear and not terrifyingly runout trad bolts. I found the Alpha trad to be a bit bulky to rack, but not a deal breaker. The nose on the thor will bother you eventually, but not that much.

I clip my trade draws to bolts and fall frequently enough. I have all of my bolt side biners the same color for this reason.