Abandoned equipment, stash spots.

climberish wrote:

Then your opinion is irrelevant bro.

This is what the OP asked.....

"This post is to see how many of you agree with leaving your crap  behind in a state  Park. "

Therefore, my opinion is relevant.

But based on your logic; then about 95% of the climbers that are posting on this thread has an irrelevant opinion as they are not route developers....Oh, unless it is in line with your opinion-ish?

Allen Sanderson wrote:

When I do development, I hike my gear in and out each and everyday. Why? Because 1) I personally do not think it should be stashed and 2) I really do not want to show up the next day/week and not find my stash, 3) It makes land managers and non climbers happier 4) It prevents BS threads like this one and the plethora of "Gear taken from XXX" threads.

That said I have stashed stuff for a climb. The last time was at the Lower Saddle on the Grand as I was coming back the following week. So I stashed a rope. If it was missing or chewed on by rodents was not of concern as the tope was about to be retired. It got used once last time ...

Allen, there is a huge difference between putting up a remote first ascent in traditional style and putting up a quality sport route on volcanic tuff such as you find at Smith, which is much more like a construction project than rock climbing. I have literally carried in shovels, pick axes, buckets, ladders and crow bars. If you carry all of this shit out at the end of each day, and in the next, all you'll be doing is hiking. 

the schmuck wrote:

Allen, there is a huge difference between putting up a remote first ascent in traditional style and putting up a quality sport route on volcanic tuff such as you find at Smith, which is much more like a construction project than rock climbing. I have literally carried in shovels, pick axes, buckets, ladders and crow bars. If you carry all of this shit out at the end of each day, and in the next, all you'll be doing is hiking. 

I do not recall comparing anything about putting up a remote first ascent in traditional style and putting up a quality sport route. All I mentioned was I hike my gear in and out each and everyday. I have developed at crags where we packed in and out crow bars and other instruments of destruction/construction to produce quality sport routes. Yeah it is a PITA, but we did not spend all of our time hiking. Having climbed at Smith since the late 70s the welded tuff is no worse or better than some of the limestone and quartzite rock that I have developed routes on. Personally, if the rock needs that much "cleanup" it is crap rock and not worth effort as even after the effort the rock is more than likely still gonna be crap, and thus a crappy route. But some feel the need ...

3 of your fotos r from the same stash
don't mess with people's gear

With the particulars of Smith, if removing a stash it should obviously go to the ranger or to Redpoint so the person can get their gear back.  Otherwise, I agree that you're essentially stealing.  

I'm not a route developer, so maybe my opinion holds no weight, but I do think there is something to the argument of not leaving gear stashed for multiple days in the outdoors, even at Smith.  Maybe particularly at Smith, since really even the most 'remote' corners of the park or the areas outside are still relatively easy to access.  
If we're all supposed to be practicing LNT to the best of our abilities, a gear stash goes against that.  Obviously, the argument is that LNT has different parameters in a park with terraced walkways, maintained trails, etc, but I'm not sure I agree that leaving gear fits.  The paths and maintenance are to keep people from doing more damage to the ecosystem than if the work wasn't done.  Gear stashes are a bit of laziness, really. Yeah, stuff is heavy, and a pain in the ass to carry, but why does everything have to be easy?  What happens when someone stashes things and then something happens that keeps them from getting back to it for an extended period of time?  I know of at least one area in the NW where friends have found a developer's abandoned stash.  Read: trash, and a fair amount of it, and now has to be carried out by someone else.  

Looks like someone wants to provide cover for their thieving.  Hey Shawn, I'm curious, how much time have you spent in jail for being a thief and what would you estimate is the value of climbing gear that you have stolen so far? My main question is this, if you get arrested for stealing peoples climbing gear, do you really think a Mountain Project thread will be adaquate cover to get released?

For anyone like me that didn't know this was a long dead horse: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/108463878/smith-rock-thievery-part-deux?page=9

Shawn Snyder wrote:

 Absolutely not trus.   You can justify all the laziness buy Saying  when it gets removed it stolen.  I personally call BS    When you leave something behind it’s called abandoned or trash. Removing trash is not stealing.  That’s why I’m making this post to prove there’s more people that believe it’s disrespect than ok. 

I accidentally left a rope in a ropebag in the Christian Brothers on a Sunday back in October that was never returned. It’s disheartening to know that it was taken and thrown away and not just turned over to the park service.

No one should buy into this nonsense - it's straight up theft plain and simple.

Healyje wrote: No one should buy into this nonsense - it's straight up theft plain and simple.

I don't often agree with you, but I do here.

 I want to thank all of you for your responses positive or negative.  My reason for this post was to see how people really feel and show that to  The higher-ups in Salem.  I wanted the people in Salem to see  how many people justify leaving that crap behind.  I feel they got that loud and clear and now  I will let them do their job.  My sincere apologies to all those concerned  and who agree that this is complete laziness and self entitlement.  Based on the responses to this post it appears there is more self entitled laziness in  the Climbing community then  originally anticipated.  I feel Salem has finally realized that as well.  Peace to you and continue to fight the good fight because I know I will be. 

Shawn Snyder wrote:  I want to thank all of you for your responses positive or negative.  My reason for this post was to see how people really feel and show that to  The higher-ups in Salem.  I wanted the people in Salem to see  how many people justify leaving that crap behind.  I feel they got that loud and clear and now  I will let them do their job.  My sincere apologies to all those concerned  and who agree that this is complete laziness and self entitlement.  Based on the responses to this post it appears there is more self entitled laziness in  the Climbing community then  originally anticipated.  I feel Salem has finally realized that as well.  Peace to you and continue to fight the good fight because I know I will be. 

So you proudly ratted out the developers (by using this thread?!) because they weren't developing to some arbitrary standard set by your mood that day, jeopardizing access for all the user groups at Smith.

The developers aren't lazy and self-entitled.... you are.

The 'good fight' I fight is against you and your narcissism 

someone please stash some weed and a pipe in a rope bag for Shawn to find and "dispose" of.

then we can have a much more low-key forum titled "abandoned equipment, hash pots"

Jaren Watson wrote:

Not only a thief but also a narc. Give it a rest, man. Climbing is fun. Try to regain that joy instead of being such an insufferable lunatic.

It blows my mind that people have defended you because of the good you done. Your spiteful actions are far more harmful to the community than any contributions you have made.

I’m truly sorry for the community at Smith. I can’t even imagine what a nightmare it would be having to deal with you personally.

Exactly this!  

For those who have never been there, this pic gives a little idea of the terrain at Smith. Scroll through the Smith page photos for more and better stuff. All of the vague light tan lines are trails, well established, and well maintained. I'm standing at the base of the climbing. All the parking, camping, etc. are across the river, equally high up from my vantage point. Anything you do, starts with a hike down a steep ramp and/or staircase, a last chance for potable water, a single bridge to cross the river, a hike along the river to whatever part you wish to get to, then a staircase steep hike up to the base of your climbing. In many instances, the "staircase" is literal. That river? The aptly named Crooked River. It wraps all the way around the main climbing. You can take a longer hike all the way around, or, go over a fourth/fifth (?) class pass. A great deal of infrastructure has gone in at Smith, at least on the heavily traveled part. These are the easier approaches, and, they have made it possible for just "regular" people to also enjoy this beautiful, photogenic, park. When I was there, it was hugely crowded, and not just climbers. There was even a wedding that day!

Areas still in development, correct me if I am wrong, are farther afield than the stuff that's been developed for a long time. Some of those approaches include scrambles and down climbs. They also include trails named things like "Cambodian highway" and "Misery Ridge". Personally, anyone who is helping out with anything to do with infrastructure at Smith, has the gratitude of myself, and many others, I'm sure. When I was considering if I could even attempt the hikes, I was looking closely at a topo map, guessing elevation gain versus mileage. I came up with about 30 stories of stairs to approximate where we were going.

To see if that was practical for my battered knees, I went up 20ish stories at our local bank building downtown.

The same stairwell our local firefighters train on, fully rigged up with oxygen tanks and all, for an annual staircase fundraiser up a big building in Seattle.

That, is what I picture when folks give the locals at Smith crap about stashing shovels, crowbars, whatever, when they are providing services that will allow the park to survive the hordes that descend there regularly.

It's a local issue, for the locals to sort out, but, IMO Smith is one of the places setting the standard for development for increasingly trafficked areas. City of Rocks/Castle is another. Thanks sooooo much!

Best, Helen

EDIT to add: to be totally clear, if a local chooses to stash stuff while working to improve this place, having merely hauled only my sorry self on those approaches, FINE!! Just my opinion, but holy crap, I sure wouldn't want to be the one hauling that stuff on those slogs.

Shawn has every right to complain to park staff about gear left behind but he certainly has no right to take that gear as his own

I believe there needs to be some sort of restraining order issued. I'll leave that up to the locals.

The rubble of a well-documented and decades-long social media/legal trail would tend to indicate someone who has never been interested in changing their stripes.

Hey Shawn, again, how much time have you spent in jail for being a thief and what would you estimate is the value of climbing gear that you have stolen so far? My main question is this, if you get arrested for stealing peoples climbing gear, do you really think a Mountain Project thread will be adequate cover to get released? By the way bro, you should expect be banned from the park for life when you get caught stealing next time.

^^^THIS^^^ is the only question here that needs to be answered. Most of us have heard the many "Waaaa Waaa Waa Shawn ripped me off and stole my (fill in the blank here)" - this isn't about random stuff laying on the ground, just leave folks stuff alone.

Shawn Snyder wrote:

 Absolutely not trus.   You can justify all the laziness buy Saying  when it gets removed it stolen.  I personally call BS    When you leave something behind it’s called abandoned or trash. Removing trash is not stealing.  That’s why I’m making this post to prove there’s more people that believe it’s disrespect than ok. 

leave a cam or nut on a climb is fair game for anyone to take....  I'm not stealing quick draws off a proj or running away with a rope i haven't seen someone touch in an hour, but there is grey area in what is booty and what isn't ... leaving your gear is a gamble 

obviously ppl like you exist ... so fair warning to all those ppl leaving gear behind

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