Friend vrs camalot

The cam of the future is available now. Why not choose the Totem cams. 

Marc-Olivier Chabot wrote: The cam of the future is available now. Why not choose the Totem cams. 

This sounds like a car ad... and no surprise because you sell Totems and have an obvious agenda to be partial to them. Hardly appropriate for a gear review thread about camalots and friends. And with no information to support such claim, it's quite a worthless contribution. I don't have a problem with pedaling your Totem business on the For Sale forum, but keep your advertising out of the rest of the forum -- simply poor class.

Back on topic, it is a critical distinction whether we are talking about old Friends (single axle) or new Friends (dual axle). Tech specs between new Friends and C4s have been outlined correctly up thread (between all the chest beating). I agree with the general consensus that new Friends are almost the same as C4s with a few minor improvements. If I were buying new and prices the same, I would choose new Friends. However I don't often buy cams new and thus most of my creek rack are C4s -- cheap and easy to find. 

The difference between old Friends and C4s is significant, and furthermore the differences between classic rigid stem Friends, Tech Friends, and Helium Friends (other than camming range/angle) is also significant. Generally speaking the older the version, the stiffer the springs and more rigid the stem. The Helium Friends (latest version) are basically the C4 stem and trigger design, but with a single axle and a bit lighter. Some people really like them, but I never carry them part of my standard double rack because the lobes sometimes do wonky rotating. The only place I've found the range difference to be of critical use is at Indian Creek. I have a rack of Helium Friends and a rack of Metolius Fat cams to fill sizes between C4s/Dragons/New Friends. It's not consistent or precise throughout the entire range, but for example with a C4 #2, a #3 old Friend will fit great when the C4 is tipped out and a #8 metolius fits when the old Friend is tipped out but still fits just smaller than a C4 #3.

To digress, I think Totem Totems in small sizes are great, possibly unmatched, but I would never want to trade all my medium to hand sizes for Totems. They rack very awkwardly and the softer metal takes a beating, plus higher price. Comparing a Totem 1.5 to a C4 #1, the range is nearly identical and weight only 4g difference, but C4s can be bought used for ~$40 and last for years, whereas a Totem is double that price with a shorter life span. I also echo some other comments that new Dragons are a stellar cam if you're not set on a thumb loop. The extendable sling is a more useful length and additional bite of the lobes is noticeable, but again the price is often higher. I'm also a big fan of Metolius UL Mastercam as a great single axle complement in medium to small sizes. It's an all metal unit, made and serviced (exceptionally well and for cheap) in the USA, is one of the lightest cams on the market, and always affordable.

I think the one-type-of-cam rack is ill-advised, typically by those who are paralyzed by the comforts of familiarity. A diverse rack is a versatile rack, and a leader who can efficiently utilize such a rack simply has more tools available. I personally like to climb with the following if carrying full doubles: Totem black and blue, BD red c3, Metoluis UL #2-6, Dragons #1-5 (double #4), WC New Friend #3-4, and WC Old Friend #4. To really deviate from the thread topic, I also recommend everyone learn how to use tricams and hexes -- they're not better than a cam but undeniably lighter (I rarely carry a full double set of cams anymore), and when a cam won't work a tricam or hex will often be bomber. More tools and the knowledge to use them, more options to protect yourself.

Not reading all of that^^^

The single axle helium friends sucked ass. The new ones are nice, but I find the extendable slings really don't provide much benefit.

My ultimate rack~ Single C4's with UL #3's & #4. Single totems blue-red.

At first I wasn't a believer in totems, but if you can get a deal on them, don't hesitate.

^^^ interested in thread enough to click and contribute, but too lazy (or insert other excusing adjective) to read 4 paragraphs of mostly relevant information. contributed personal opinion with no supporting reasons. classic mp

sorry Max - I don't mean to pick on you specifically, and I promise I don't mean it personally. Just a common theme that grinds my gears on mp.

[edit] Max, if your response was meant to say "Not reading all of that BS up thread" as opposed to "Not reading all of that previous post", I respectfully withdraw the first sentence of this post.

Andy W wrote:

This sounds like a car ad... and no surprise because you sell Totems and have an obvious agenda to be partial to them. Hardly appropriate for a gear review thread about camalots and friends. And with no information to support such claim, it's quite a worthless contribution. I don't have a problem with pedaling your Totem business on the For Sale forum, but keep your advertising out of the rest of the forum -- simply poor class.

First sorry for my english, I'll do my best. Who make an advertising? You are the one that tell to everybody here that I'm selling totem cams. I did not even put a link. How can you say that? Why are you so mad to qualify my comment as poor class? Just to let you know I sell also DMM dragon cams, Totem Basic and WC Friend. If my goal was to sell stuff I had mp the guy with an unbeatable WC friends price without even talk about totem. This guy looks to be a newcomer, at least in trad climbing. My goal was to let him know about another option that many consider the best cam. You said that you already have totem so you must know how good is it. It obvious that in 10 years or so many popular brands will copied this cam like all those brands copied the first cam, the first ice screw, the first sticky shoes, the first curve ice tool, etc. This is for me obviously the future of cam.

Info about C4 vs new Friends are the main subject here and info are harder to find than information and spec of totem cams. Mountain project have so many post about totem. Because of that I did not want to make a 300 words about totem in a post of C4 vs Friends. If the guy are curious about my opinion he know how to ask it as other did for the past year. Also, right it down my opinion could make guys like you mad because it appear to be not neutral so not giving my opinion is the best way to being neutral. Everybody know how to use mountainproject or Google and find review. Then at the end of the day he will have no idea I sell the cam and he will obviously buy from is favorite store or where Google brings him. Because of your comment he know I sell the cam and because not giving my opinion makes me not neutral, apparently : here my opinion in middle of page 4 (most are facts support with pictures). https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112939616/totem-cams-black-to-orange-preorder-kailas-nucototem-basic-and-kailas-emery-nuts?page=4

Sorry to did an advertising with no link, no price and absolutely nothing about selling stuff, totem or WC friend. I'm probably the worst business man, but now you know my not neutral opinion about totem cam.

I can't believe I lost 2 hours reply to this free attack about something I did not do,when I have a full time job, 2 kids and a climbing store that I start when I was injured with the purpose of bringing more gear harder to find in North america, specially in Canada and mostly, I did not put a single penny in my pocket. All profit is going back in the store to bring more gear or goes on bolts, anchors and developing new crags. I have send 200$ of bolts for a route at 8 hours driving from me so I did not spend on bolt for myself but for the climbing community. Fortunately many reward me for what I did but honestly, one bad comment make me rethinking why I did spent so many time and sacrifice good times with my kids, climbing or training. All of this for the benefit of the community and 0$ for me! Andy, you don't know me so don't hate me for nothing and don't charge me for something I did not do. Thanks

One thing to note is that the Friends have no anodization on the contact area of the lobes. I have only climbed with the Friends a few times, but the DMM Dragons also have the anodization removed in the same spot, and I often climb with a blue dragon and a blue camalot on my harness, so I can compare the two.

The lack of anodization and texture seems to make a significant difference in preventing the Dragon cams from walking. Specifically, these large-ish cams seem to like to rotate, and the Dragon Cam rotates less in my experience.

The extendable slings are nice but don't really remove the need for slings to extend, and I don't care about the thumb loops. So to me, the lack of anodization is the biggest difference between the Dragon Cams and the Camalots.

As I said before, I haven't climbed as much with the Friends (only when climbing partners have them) but they also seem to rotate a bit less due to the removed anodization.

The anodization does come off of the Camalots over time, but if you can get cams that work optimally right out of the box, I'm not sure why you'd settle for less. I've had my camalots longer than I've had my dragons, almost 2 years, and the C4 still has some anodization left, and still walks more than the dragons.

I did notice while aid climbing that the stem on the WC New friends can twise out of alignment with the heads. It was more annoying than concerning, but I still ordered another full set of them when I hit the ground cause I get a good deal on them and they compliment my rack of C4s well

Marc-Olivier Chabot wrote: First sorry for my english, I'll do my best. Who make an advertising?

Marc, your grammar is excused; I would surely sound much worse if I tried to reply in French-Canadian. The foundation of my complaint is that you provided a response without any supporting reasons, same complaint I have with Max's comment and many other's. Granted, I could have expressed this in a nicer tone with less accusations, so my apologies on that. However, it leaves readers to make assumptions on your reasoning for making the claim. If you were assuming most readers are aware of your review on that page 4 (as I was), then it would be safe to assume most readers also know you sell Totems, and mentioning such or including a link would not be necessary for your comment to be interrupted as an advertisement, if partially subliminal. I've seen countless ads that do not contain a place to purchase or even the product name. I personally think if you're actively engaged in the sale of products, you should not give reviews on such products without at minimum an honest disclaimer. I will admit I was not aware you also sold DMM or WC, but you are known around mp as the guy who sells Totems. I do thank you for including in your response why you think Totems are the cam of the future. I was also unaware of any philanthropy your business is engaged in, and while I and the community greatly appreciate any contributions you make, it does not omit you from the possibility of being called out on mp. Responding is a personal choice -- welcome to the blackhole!

ps - this is not personal. I'm sure you're a great guy, but to me, on this forum, you're more of a retailer than a fellow user. My perception could be wrong, but I read the latest threads weekly and I'm not sure I've seen a post (or very many) from you not related to praising or selling Totems. At a certain point (ie this thread) I think it to be poor business class, but not to be confused with ethics. Honestly, I encourage you to not engage in any of the forum and instead spend that time with your family or climbing, as we all should.

If you would like to discuss anything further, please feel free to pm me so as not to dilute this thread any further. My apologies to the greater mp for two posts of irrelevant nonsense.

David Kerkeslager wrote: One thing to note is that the Friends have no anodization on the contact area of the lobes. I have only climbed with the Friends a few times, but the DMM Dragons also have the anodization removed in the same spot, and I often climb with a blue dragon and a blue camalot on my harness, so I can compare the two.

The lack of anodization and texture seems to make a significant difference in preventing the Dragon cams from walking. Specifically, these large-ish cams seem to like to rotate, and the Dragon Cam rotates less in my experience.

The extendable slings are nice but don't really remove the need for slings to extend, and I don't care about the thumb loops. So to me, the lack of anodization is the biggest difference between the Dragon Cams and the Camalots.

As I said before, I haven't climbed as much with the Friends (only when climbing partners have them) but they also seem to rotate a bit less due to the removed anodization.

The anodization does come off of the Camalots over time, but if you can get cams that work optimally right out of the box, I'm not sure why you'd settle for less. I've had my camalots longer than I've had my dragons, almost 2 years, and the C4 still has some anodization left, and still walks more than the dragons.

I don't know how much effect anodizing really has on walking.  In looking at metal on metal wear, it appears that anodizing can reduce initial friction but also decreases wear, so it looks like anodizing offers advantages in one area and disadvantages in the other.  But overall, I expect it to more of a marketing issue.  The texturing on the Dragons are far more likely to reduce walking than the effect on anodizing.

Matt Himmelstein wrote:

The texturing on the Dragons are far more likely to reduce walking than the effect on anodizing.

That's a good point.

Jay Eggleston wrote: The new Friends are lighter than C4s.  They are between the Ultralights and regular C4s.  I used to like that the Friends were slightly different in size but, now they are not.  It was good to have them as slightly different sized cams from C4s,  now not so much.

Not only are new friends lighter than C4s, they're also lighter than the new C4s that are coming out in January (except for the #2, #3 and #4)

1. Matt Himmelstein wrote: 

I don't know if they are the gold standard more than they are just the 800 pound gorilla of climbing gear.

I like my BD C4s and X4s, but I also have a frankenrack with a number of DMMs, some Metoleus and a few Aliens.  I have never placed one of the New Friends, but I have played with them in the store and would buy one.  With the double axle, I would buy them interchangibly with either the BDs or DMMs, basically looking for the best deal on the size I wanted.  They are even colored like both the BDs and DMMs, so racking is simpler.

Is there a clear performance winner of Dmm dragon vs CD Cam c4 vs wild country or just personal preference?

Santa Claus wrote:

Is there a clear performance winner of Dmm dragon vs Camelot c4 vs wild country or just personal preference?

Personal preference, and in my personal opinion, it's really nice to mix up brands when doubling up your rack, the colors correspond, but the sizes are slightly off, if you know that one set of cams is always slightly smaller than another, you've got a little more options in your placements.

They all do the same shit and last though. 

It's not JUST personal preference. Some things, like thumb loops, are personal preference, but there's a pretty clear difference in how much Dragons walk/rotate versus how much the C4s walk/rotate in the larger sizes (the C4s walk/rotate more). There are also price differences, which are fairly objective.

If you're just buying on price, it's hard to beat buying used C4s off MP, and they're perfectly adequate for most things. But there are real advantages to the other cams.

Santa Claus wrote:

Is there a clear performance winner of Dmm dragon vs Camelot c4 vs wild country or just personal preference?

Not for me.  I generally buy what is on sale at the lowest price.

I’ve still got rigid stem friends from the 80s. They work.

Santa Claus wrote: I’ve still got rigid stem friends from the 80s. They work.

New friends are explicitly just c4 ripoffs done better, they're totally different

adeadhead wrote:

New friends are explicitly just c4 ripoffs done better, they're totally different

Hmm. Interesting logic since Wild Country brought the first cams to the market. 

Greg D wrote:

Hmm. Interesting logic since Wild Country brought the first cams to the market. 

Not the discussion. The double axle cam is what is being ripped off here. 

adeadhead wrote:

Not the discussion. The double axle cam is what is being ripped off here. 

So BD copies the entire cam concept, adds a second axel and that’s not ripping off. But, 40 years after WC brings the cam to market, they add a second axel and that’s a ripoff?