Ethics of "stick clipping" your first trad piece on a route

Ty Gilroy wrote:

No it most likely was not. But it was most likely rapped before an fa attempt to see if the line would go and where the gear was. I think onsight ground up with a stick clipped first piece is still a better style

thanks for saying 'style', 'ethics' has nothing to do with this conversation

'ethics' loosely means the climbers' impact on the rock and environment.  The rock is in no way altered if one places gear on lead or from a stick clip.

However, TRADitionally, the style in which the FA first did the route is considered the style in which it is best to repeat the route.

If Gobright preplaced a cam then I say it's chill and stylish.

Tradiban wrote:

Do whatever you want but this is a "pink point" and should be noted as such.

Tradiban, thanks for providing the correct terminology. 

Matt Westlake wrote:

You've already gotten a number of responses as to the ethics of this, but my two cents is do what won't get you hurt and whatever lets you sleep at night especially if this is pushing your limits. If it bugs you, after you dial it in you can "clean it up" with an non-stick clip ascent later. It'd be a pain in the ass to hike/get carried from all the way back down from up there if you jack up an ankle.

Operationally, the opening boulder move is definitely the crux, even though the above roof looks intimidating. Per a route comment I see an alternate solution via tackling the harder sequence with more positive holds starting up Meat Puppet. The easiest way to "stick clip" this is to lead the adjacent Beelzebubba, set a gear anchor then lower down and place the piece in question on Head Like a Hole and tag in your line as you go past. Alternately, you could maybe get pro in the rising traverse crack but probably you are better off just having your partner spot you. As to how I go about this, unless it's really wet I just boulder up and do the move on this one. I've slipped off before and it's just a few feet up and you are in decent enough stance. Once you are past that opening move, it's cruiser.

Matt, thanks for the suggestions and encouragement. 

Style issue.  What arbitrary rules do you want to set for yourself or your partner group to make the game you are involved with most challenging and satisfying?  Its just a game.  If a person cares about whether someone else sent something “clean” or not, their priorities are out of alignment.  Climbing isn't a spectator sport.  
Ethical questions in climbing pertain to various issues, including, but not limited to the following:

1. Actions that may impact access.
2. Permanent alterations of the rock or surroundings that may effect the experience of others.
3. Actions while climbing (like playing loud music) that may effect the experience of others.
4. Perpetuating false, antiquated and damaging ideas such as the nonsense that a first ascensionist has some sort of ownership over a chunk of rock that should properly be considered a shared public resource.  The community of climbers may have a particular care-taking role over climbable rock that gives that community more immediate and focused responsibilities than the general public, but that does not mean that they own it any more than anyone else.  While the efforts involved with establishing routes are laudable and appreciated, those efforts do not confer any rights to put something up that does not conform to community standards.  Neither does the willingness to do the work to remove permanent anchors privilege a person to modify a public resource in a manner that the community does not support.
5. The requirement of honesty about ones experience and abilities when making plans with potential partners.  (If you are not developing partnerships for future climbs, lying about your climbing abilities or achievements is pathetic and may be indicative of a weakness of character or emotional problems that you should address, but it is not an issue pertaining to climbing ethics, because in such situations no one else should, properly speaking, have any investment in the outcomes of your climbing efforts other than a desire to encourage your enthusiasm and see you doing something healthy and so forth.  .  If they do, that is their own pathetic problem.  And why would you be talking to someone like that anyway?)
6. Duties and obligations pertaining to rescue of partners and others, even at the expense of one's own climbing goals and sometimes safety.

Shane Rosanbalm wrote: A local trad route begins with several insecure (for the grade) moves. Is it fair to stand on a friend's shoulders to "stick clip" a first piece prior to getting underway? Or does that tactic make it an aid climb?

No offense, but personally I find questions like this somewhat perplexing.  Maybe I just don't have the competitive spirit (in rock climbing), but why does the style of your ascent even matter to you?  Are you keeping score?  And if you are keeping score then why?  Is there sponsorship money on the line?  If you are just trying to keep track of your own personal progress, then just make a note in your log book that you stood on someone's shoulders so if you come back to the climb in the future you remember.

Just climb to have fun, and be safe while doing it.  If you are worried about your score then you are just adding unnecessary stress to a fun activity.  The fact that you were willing to push yourself and do a climb that was maybe a little beyond your climbing ability is a good thing.  If you want to get strong that's the way to do it.  Or maybe the climb was well within your ability and looked really fun, but intimidating.  Either way, you are better off cheating but climbing the route than avoiding the route, or risking injury.

cyclestupor wrote:

Either way, you are better off cheating but climbing the route than avoiding the route, or risking injury.

I like this sentiment. That really helps put things in perspective. Thanks!

This is why I have a well trained squirrel

"NO! I said the number 2 you idiot!  Now go back up and replace it!"

Ty Gilroy wrote:

No it most likely was not. But it was most likely rapped before an fa attempt to see if the line would go and where the gear was. I think onsight ground up with a stick clipped first piece is still a better style

I checked with Randy Kielbasiewicz, on the FA style. His comment:

"From the ground with no pre-inspection. I added the bolt a few years back when I put up the routes to the right. Most of my trad lines were done this way so the grades may be off a bit. I’m not sure if the routes have been repeated so watch out for loose/hollow rock."

Style is everything. You suck. Death to stick clips!!!

I have done this and honestly believe its ok to do, its just like a jesus nut or clipping the chain first before taking off.

it does not detract from the effort (unless you pull on the piece or start at the piece) or your skills as a climber, it just keeps you safe...

If the ego drives your purist view then that is your outlook and belief. If i do pre place a cam i typically will climb as high as i can and place, then down climb, then fire it. 

How about one of these instead?

Mark Andes wrote:

How about one of these instead?

It is sometimes possible to do nearly the same thing with a big stopper or hex. Actually, there's a route just left of the one referred to in the OP that you can do this with. Not a great line but this move protects the crux if you can fling it in and get it to stick. 

Healyje wrote: I checked with Randy Kielbasiewicz, on the FA style. His comment:

"From the ground with no pre-inspection. I added the bolt a few years back when I put up the routes to the right. Most of my trad lines were done this way so the grades may be off a bit. I’m not sure if the routes have been repeated so watch out for loose/hollow rock."

Good job Ace! Im sure hed be happy to know it has been repeated and doesnt care that someone stick clipped the first piece. Get a life

Healyje wrote:Randy Kielbasiewicz...

Son of a Horny Sausage? Rad.

Ty Gilroy wrote:

Good job Ace! Im sure hed be happy to know it has been repeated and doesnt care that someone stick clipped the first piece. Get a life

Ty- you should delve a little deeper before you try to take on Healy...