Soft catch and easy slack feeding with assisted braking devices?

El Duderino wrote:
As for easy slack feeding, perhaps it's user error; I'll admit that. The problem I seem to have is particularly when clipping.  Even if I have slack out, there seems to be an inevitable tug of war when the leader takes up a bight to clip faster than I can pay out rope (particularly bad if they are taking up a bunch of slack to clip a bolt above their heads).  Then I can't release the cam until they stop tugging, but they don't because they're pumped and panicking at the clip.  I mean, I guess the easy option would be to leave more slack out, but that would leave more than I'm comfortable with and it's never been an issue for me with an ATC.

I may be stating the obvious here, but the belayer needs to pay out A LOT of slack for a really high clip. Like TWICE the amount i.e. if the leader is clipping a bolt 3 ft above his harness, the belayer will need to provide a bit more than 6 feet. That's more than an arm's length for me as a belayer, so a minimum of two arm lengths is often required.

El Duderino wrote:

...

As for easy slack feeding, perhaps it's user error; I'll admit that. The problem I seem to have is particularly when clipping.  Even if I have slack out, there seems to be an inevitable tug of war when the leader takes up a bight to clip faster than I can pay out rope (particularly bad if they are taking up a bunch of slack to clip a bolt above their heads).  Then I can't release the cam until they stop tugging, but they don't because they're pumped and panicking at the clip.  I mean, I guess the easy option would be to leave more slack out, but that would leave more than I'm comfortable with and it's never been an issue for me with an ATC.

Yes, this is 100% user error.  There is no reason that you need to leave any additional slack out.  As long as you know when the climber is going to make the clip and anticipate it, there is absolutely no reason that the device should lock up when feeding out the slack because you should be feeding it out faster than the climber can pull it up to clip.  If you can't do this then you need to practice until you can do it right.

Gunkiemike wrote:

I may be stating the obvious here, but the belayer needs to pay out A LOT of slack for a really high clip. Like TWICE the amount i.e. if the leader is clipping a bolt 3 ft above his harness, the belayer will need to provide a bit more than 6 feet. That's more than an arm's length for me as a belayer, so a minimum of two arm lengths is often required.

I learned this lesson belaying a partner who clipped fast as lightning. She has a +3 ape index and would reach far down the rope grab a huge bight to make high clips, not the usual "one pull, bite rope, pull up additional" for high clips. That's actually what ended up converting me to a grigri, I could pump out two arm lengths of slack in seconds. 

For those commenting about a tube device to rap, consider fixing a strand with a biner block. First partner down on the grigri, second using the guide device on both strands. As a bonus it's faster/easier to ascend the rope on a grigri if you're doing some adventure rappelling. 

El Duderino wrote:

As far as the soft catch is concerned, point taken: that depends more on the belayer than the device.

As for easy slack feeding, perhaps it's user error; I'll admit that. The problem I seem to have is particularly when clipping.  Even if I have slack out, there seems to be an inevitable tug of war when the leader takes up a bight to clip faster than I can pay out rope (particularly bad if they are taking up a bunch of slack to clip a bolt above their heads).  Then I can't release the cam until they stop tugging, but they don't because they're pumped and panicking at the clip.  I mean, I guess the easy option would be to leave more slack out, but that would leave more than I'm comfortable with and it's never been an issue for me with an ATC.

Unless you're standing with your nose against the wall just take a step forward or two. Instant slack. 

Ken Noyce wrote:

Yes, this is 100% user error.  There is no reason that you need to leave any additional slack out.  As long as you know when the climber is going to make the clip and anticipate it, there is absolutely no reason that the device should lock up when feeding out the slack because you should be feeding it out faster than the climber can pull it up to clip.  If you can't do this then you need to practice until you can do it right.

Things I've learned from this discussion:

1.) Walking towards the wall is an easy way to give more slack to the leader.  This is such a simple solution, but I've never seen it discussed, much less in gym settings where people are often told to belay close to the wall.
2.) It's acceptable to move the brake rope parallel to the lead end when giving out slack.  I've was first told to keep the brake hand down, which of course added way more tension than was necessary, but I thought that moving the rope to a parallel position was "cheating."  Was this some old school info that is no longer relevant or did they just misrepresent the process in general?
3.) If the leader is clipping high, give out more slack than I think they'll need; in general it's better to have more out in that moment and take in than the opposite (assuming they're not looking like they'll biff it and hit a ledge with the extra slack).
4.) I played around with a GriGri2 and Mad Rock Lifeguard and found that the Lifeguard was less likely to lock up when giving out slack in a normal position, but that it was easier to press down the cam to deal out slack quickly on the GriGri thanks to that little lip.
5.) If you ask a newb question, expect salty responses.  But I've been on MP before; what did I expect?

El Duderino wrote:

Things I've learned from this discussion:

1.) Walking towards the wall is an easy way to give more slack to the leader.  This is such a simple solution, but I've never seen it discussed, much less in gym settings where people are often told to belay close to the wall.

This is a simple solution-- with many caveats. Newbies often end up standing WAY too far away from the wall, and this can result in the belayer, especially lightweight belayer, being pulled to the wall and slammed in. There are threads here on MP about people breaking ankles, etc. when they stood too far and got pulled in violently, when their climber fell.

People who talk about walking backward and forward are talking about taking A step, two at the most, and that sometimes gets lost in the discussion.

2.) It's acceptable to move the brake rope parallel to the lead end when giving out slack.  I've was first told to keep the brake hand down, which of course added way more tension than was necessary, but I thought that moving the rope to a parallel position was "cheating."  Was this some old school info that is no longer relevant or did they just misrepresent the process in general?

This depends on the device, and you have the "old-school" thing backwards. Pinch-and-slide method, sometimes also called palms-up method, used to be the norm on tube-style devices, before locking assist devices even existed. The new norm that is taught in the gym for toproping is something like PBUS, waterfall, hand--over-hand, that all call for the rope to be down in braking position at all times. Because it is legitimately safer for toproping, and easier to learn/check at a glance in a busy gym. But these methods are harder to use for leading, and you need to learn a new skillset.

3.) If the leader is clipping high, give out more slack than I think they'll need; in general it's better to have more out in that moment and take in than the opposite (assuming they're not looking like they'll biff it and hit a ledge with the extra slack).

O.K. But better yet to practice giving just a little bit more, not armfull-more.

4.) I played around with a GriGri2 and Mad Rock Lifeguard and found that the Lifeguard was less likely to lock up when giving out slack in a normal position, but that it was easier to press down the cam to deal out slack quickly on the GriGri thanks to that little lip.

Grigri doesn't lock up when feeding a little slack either, practice makes perfect.
 

5.) If you ask a newb question, expect salty responses.  But I've been on MP before; what did I expect?

100% correct on this one!

I'd definitely recommend the ATC-Pilot. It feeds out well and has the smoothest lowering of anything I've used and at 1/3 the price of a GriGri. Not much use for any multi-pitch or rappelling though so it's no replacement for an ATC-Guide.

A note about belayers being slammed into the wall. Remember that to pay out slack quickly you simply need to move yourself closer under the bolt, you don't have to be OUT from the wall, you can simply be to the side of the bolt line. Keep in mind that when your leader falls you will be pulled sideways and skim the wall, check out volumes and large holds. Don't go so far to the side that you're in another bolt line, that would have you swinging wildly, just a step or two off as Lena was saying.

While 95+% of the responsibility for the catch is belayer and not the device, I do believe that there are circumstances in which the choice of belay device can make a substantial difference in the softness of your catch. As some anecdote, I used to climb regularly with a partner who weighed somewhere in the low/mid 90 lbs, and I am somewhere in the low/mid 150s. I would consider myself a fairly good belayer who does a lot to make sure the catch is as soft as reasonable/feasible. However, try as I might, the weight difference made the margin for error on timing extremely small, and my catches were inconsistent at best with this partner when I used a grigri.

Eventually, I switched to a tube type device, and during a catch I would intentionally let about 6 inches or so of brake rope slide through the device slowly (edit for clarity: through the DEVICE, NOT my hands. Hand was locked onto the rope, but would "push" some rope through). That made a WORLD of difference, and couldn't be done with a grigri (or maybe any other assisted locking belay device). However, this is a very specific circumstance (extremely light climber), and I wouldn't recommend anyone do it without practice.

With her back against the cliff? Bad advice, indeed.

FrankPS wrote: With her back against the cliff? Bad advice, indeed.

Not necessarily, If the route is severely overhanging it can be a very comfortable and safe way to belay, as long as the fall will pull the belayer away from the wall it's not a problem at all.

Ken Noyce wrote:

Not necessarily, If the route is severely overhanging it can be a very comfortable and safe way to belay, as long as the fall will pull the belayer away from the wall it's not a problem at all.

I agree that there are exceptions/unusual circumstances. I belayed once from underneath an overhang, facing out, because I didn't want to get hit by a falling partner. And he did fall. 

However, the leader in the referenced incident said it was "dangerous advice." I'll take his word for it.

FrankPS wrote:

I agree that there are exceptions/unusual circumstances. I belayed once from underneath an overhang, facing out, because I didn't want to get hit by a falling partner. And he did fall. 

However, the leader in the referenced incident said it was "dangerous advice." I'll take his word for it.

Totally agree, I just wanted to point out that it is not always dangerous advice, in the case of the referenced incident, I'm sure it was.

Evan Jeffrey wrote: I'd definitely recommend the ATC-Pilot. It feeds out well and has the smoothest lowering of anything I've used and at 1/3 the price of a GriGri. Not much use for any multi-pitch or rappelling though so it's no replacement for an ATC-Guide.

For the past year, I've been using both an ATC Guide and Pilot on multipitch climbs. Lead belay with the ATC Pilot (which feeds very well once you get used to it) and top belay with the guide. This way, my partner is always on an assisted braking device and change overs go smoothly as I can throw them on the pilot prior to undoing guide mode. Both devices are light and compact and the Pilot works well when rappelling off a block or simul, if you have to. 

Mostly due to bulk and weight, I'm not a big fan of a grigri in alpine or on multipitch despite the obvious versatility, and I've shied away from the Megajul due to inconsistent reviews.

Jaren Watson wrote: Another note about the belayer being slammed into the wall.
My wife was belaying me on an overhanging route on which I figured I would likely fall. I had a good idea where I was likely to fall, and I wanted to have plenty of slack out so I could clear a small roof without hitting my head.
I told her how much slack I wanted and advised her to be ready to be launched upward and into the wall, and that she should be ready to catch herself with her feet against the wall when that happened.
We had agreed to climb with another person whom we hadn’t met. This person had some days of outside climbing and quite a lot of gym climbing/belaying as experience.
Halfway into my lead, our guest advised my wife to stand up against the rock with her back against the cliff.
I did fall. My wife did launch into the air and into the wall. She had belayed me before but hadn’t caught a significant fall.
Thank goodness, she didn’t follow the dangerous advice she was given.
My point here is that even “experienced” climbers might not know how to catch falls safely.

I'm the "experienced" climber giving bad advice, lol!

This is more than a year ago. I was very excited that Jaren offered to get me out, and was greatly looking forward to finally having the mentor that people on here said I should seek out (ahem, Frank included). I literally didn't sleep the night before.

Jaren fell exactly as described, and his wife was gently lifted a couple feet and gracefully executed a picture perfect landing with her feet on the wall. Where she was standing was fine, the catch was fine, she had the slack out when he needed it.

At that time, I still had road rash on my arm from catching a rather huge fall. I remember being concerned she seemed too far out, but I don't remember "back to the wall". If I'm next to the wall, I generally turn one side in. I've had the fast ride that could slam a face into the wall, as well as the more usual catches where there's time to put your feet up.

Anyway, I thought this was going to be a mentorship. Jaren later said no. No explanations. We have since met at the cliffs and talked. He's a good guy, and his wife is wonderful.

It's a hard world out there for new climbers. Many of us are on our own, learning as we go. When you who do have the experience have the opportunity? Offer the kindness Jaren and his wife gave to me. It didn't work out, but it was offered. I greatly appreciate that. It's also great to have people like Jaren making real contributions on here. That, also helps noobs.

Like me. I expect to be learning this craft until I can no longer climb at all!

Best, Helen

ATC Pilot is working well for us. It's simple and easy to use after a little bit of practice. Grigri requires more familiarity and has that nasty habit of camming when you pull out of sequence. I've taken to using an SBG 2 for lead belaying. It's very fast to feed and as long as it's not a project it's fine. If I know it's a project, the grgri is the first choice.