"civilized" ski mountaineering comes to the Sierra

Saw this report that Mammoth Mt is going to start permitting (with purchase of some ticket of course) skiing
uphill.
http://mammothmountain.com/winter/mountain-information/lifts-trails/uphill-access 

I like that it's during daytime operating hours - (just the opposite of some other ski resorts).
Three designated routes legal for uphill. One winds it way around the N side and reaches the summit of the mountain. (Somehow sounds too gentle to want to do with climbing skins -- maybe I'll try skating up it).

Also an LAtimes report that Mammoth is going to have an approved backcountry tour (mostly downhill I assume) skiing off the summit to finish at Tamarack XC center.

Haven't checked the price -- guessing that it will be in line with the remarkable cost of a half-day of their new "civilized" version of Climbing just opened this August.

More likely I'll just ride the bus out to Tamarack, skin up into the Sherwins, then ski down to the other bus stop below. Nice version of "civilized" skiing -- free extra vertical using public transportation.

Ken

P.S. What I really want for springtime ski mountaineering around Mammoth is so simple: Just start plowing the road out to Lake Mary in mid-April. Or how about plowing all the way up to Lake George for opening day of fishing season?

props to mammoth for getting on board with uphilling.   being able to get 3k of uphill vert in the morning before riding lifts during the day is so appealing fitness-wise.  this is especially true early season before the eastside backcountry is game-on for touring.

Sugarbowl has done this for awhile now and I'm surprised so many of the CA resorts are behind the curve on this trend. It seems commonplace at CO resorts.

Just one comment, ski mountaineering and uphill resort travel are not synonymous.

What?  Just about every Western ski area I know about is on Forest Service land and has a lease to operate a ski resort.  It's still public land you can go on it whenever you want, for free, assuming your activities do not impede/endanger/otherwise compromise the operation of the area and its guests.   It's only when you buy the ticket that you agree to follow their rules.  

So unless that's changed recently, or CA law is different, you could always just hop on your backcountry skis, snow shoes, boots, etc., ski/walk up, go out of bounds, etc.   Charging you to ski uphill sounds bogus to me, as does their allowing it.    

John Byrnes wrote: What?  Just about every Western ski area I know about is on Forest Service land and has a lease to operate a ski resort.  It's still public land you can go on it whenever you want, for free, assuming your activities do not impede/endanger/otherwise compromise the operation of the area and its guests.   It's only when you buy the ticket that you agree to follow their rules.  

So unless that's changed recently, or CA law is different, you could always just hop on your backcountry skis, snow shoes, boots, etc., ski/walk up, go out of bounds, etc.   Charging you to ski uphill sounds bogus to me, as does their allowing it.    

Unfortunately many ski areas do deem it a safety hazard to use their trials for uphill travel and many do not allow it. Few N CA ski areas  allows it and for Sugarbiwl at least, only on certain trials and only after signing a waiver and paying them. 

John Byrnes wrote: What?  Just about every Western ski area I know about is on Forest Service land and has a lease to operate a ski resort.  It's still public land you can go on it whenever you want, for free, assuming your activities do not impede/endanger/otherwise compromise the operation of the area and its guests.   It's only when you buy the ticket that you agree to follow their rules.  

So unless that's changed recently, or CA law is different, you could always just hop on your backcountry skis, snow shoes, boots, etc., ski/walk up, go out of bounds, etc.   Charging you to ski uphill sounds bogus to me, as does their allowing it.    

This is wrong. Yes, the lands are leased, which means you can't go on them. These ski companies are leasing exclusive access and control for all or part of the year. Sometimes certain public access is preserved in these leases but generally not. It's more complicated than this, but that is the general idea. Follow your local ski hill's uphill policy, otherwise you are trespassing. Even worse, you could be interfering with avalanche control work. California law has nothing to do with federal leasing on federal lands.

John Byrnes wrote: Charging you to ski uphill sounds bogus to me

I don't have a problem with a modest charge for in-bounds uphill access. Ski areas provide quite a few benefits for uphillers, such as avalanche control, maintained downhill runs, access to emergency responders, plowed access roads, etc. Of course none of that is nearly as costly as installing and operating a ski lift, but it's not free, either.

Another reason why I don't mind paying for uphill access is because the ski area then views me as customer, not as a nuisance. Eldora is a case in point. They used to be outright hostile to uphill skiers, but now that they've realized they can generate some extra revenue they've become much more friendly.

Martin le Roux wrote:

I don't have a problem with a modest charge for in-bounds uphill access. Ski areas provide quite a few benefits for uphillers....

totally.  and man-made snow in the early season allowing skinning/skiing when otherwise it would not be possible.  

I don’t mind buying a back country pass. I get a ride up most of the way, skin up a few laps then it back in bounds. If you stay riding the upper lifts at most resorts no one checks tickets.

All of that still sounds completely bogus to me.   For example, why anyone would walk up in a ski area and then ski down the "maintained runs" instead of going out of bounds is baffling.   And "man-made snow" is really just ice so you might as well go to the skating rink.   "the lands are leased, which means you can't go on them", I don't believe that.  I've many times skied in to and out of a ski area on my way to/from the backcountry.   The ski patrol just checked on us and let us go: no ticket, no responsibility on their part.

"...so many of the CA resorts are behind the curve on this trend. It seems commonplace at CO resorts."  Yup.  I've never heard of a CO resort charging to ski uphill, or hinder it in any other way either.

John Byrnes wrote: For example, why anyone would walk up in a ski area and then ski down the "maintained runs" instead of going out of bounds is baffling.  

for the exact same reasons i go to the climbing gym sometimes rather than the crag or the mountains. resort uphilling provides a fun, chill, safe, and efficient way to get exercise and prepare your fitness and systems for more serious undertakings. 

This is a great.  I wish more Tahoe resorts embraced the uphill thing.  I personally would pay a reasonable fee for a season-long uphill pass.

Comparing resort uphilling to the climbing gym makes sense to me.  I'd much prefer to go on a real tour any day, and I'm sure most skiers feel the same way, but it's a nice option to have when partners/conditions/whatever don't align.  Especially early season when there may not be enough snow to really get out in the backcountry, but there is enough man made snow to get some exercise.

John Byrnes wrote:
"...so many of the CA resorts are behind the curve on this trend. It seems commonplace at CO resorts."  Yup.  I've never heard of a CO resort charging to ski uphill, or hinder it in any other way either.

You're taking my words out of context. I was clearly referring to allowing uphill travel and in no way mentioned charging fees to do so. Nonetheless, there are a few CO resorts that do charge for uphill travel. 

Tapawingo Markey wrote: You're taking my words out of context. I was clearly referring to allowing uphill travel and in no way mentioned charging fees to do so. Nonetheless, there are a few CO resorts that do charge for uphill travel. 

I was actually agreeing with you, sorry that wasn't clear.    Which resorts charge for uphill in CO?  

brian burke wrote:

for the exact same reasons i go to the climbing gym sometimes rather than the crag or the mountains. resort uphilling provides a fun, chill, safe, and efficient way to get exercise and prepare your fitness and systems for more serious undertakings. 

You misunderstood my comment.  I said why walk up the mountain and then ski down on the maintained runs.    If I hike up a mountain (I do it all the time) then I want to ski down in unbroken snow instead of on the cattle trail.  Thus, "maintained runs" in this context are not valuable to me, so why should I pay for them?    

I agree with you about the fitness you get from hiking up.  I just can't agree that doing it in a resort, with the crowding, out-of-control bozos, and general mayhem, is the place to do it.

John Byrnes wrote:

Which resorts charge for uphill in CO?  

AFAIK it's currently Crested Butte, Monarch and Eldora. For a nationwide inventory of in-bounds uphill access policies see https://ussma.org/resort-uphill-policies, but they have trouble keeping all the links current.

John Byrnes wrote:why anyone would walk up in a ski area and then ski down the "maintained runs" instead of going out of bounds is baffling.

Because sometimes the backcountry snow is breakable crust, or deep mush, or glare ice. 

And sometimes the in-bounds snow is rather fun -- at Mammoth Mt fairly often.

If want to do multiple laps skinning up in-bounds, normally it saves lots of time to also ski down in-bounds (tho not necessarily on the groomed marked trails.

Ken

John Byrnes wrote:

I was actually agreeing with you, sorry that wasn't clear.    Which resorts charge for uphill in CO?  

Ah sorry John, I misread that. See Martin's comment above.

John Byrnes wrote:

You misunderstood my comment.  I said why walk up the mountain and then ski down on the maintained runs......  

right on!

kenr wrote:

Because sometimes the backcountry snow is breakable crust, or deep mush, or glare ice. 

A good day to stay home or go climbing, no?   After so many years of skiing I'm a total snow snob, but with climate change destroying skiing in the lower 48, I guess ya gotta ski what you got.

And sometimes the in-bounds snow is rather fun -- at Mammoth Mt fairly often.

Never skied there but I've heard it's good but very crowded.

If want to do multiple laps skinning up in-bounds, normally it saves lots of time to also ski down in-bounds (tho not necessarily on the groomed marked trails.

Hmmm...  I suppose if you're just doing it for the workout.   Beats being indoors on a treadmill I guess.

Hey John, you need to get out more. The rules that the resorts operated under via the Special Used Permit (SUP) from the Forest Service (FS) for many years have changed significantly. Resorts pretty much now control the SUP area 24/7 during the operating season. The resorts see their "improvements" to be something they should be able to control and charge for. Regardless if it for uphill or downhill or the time of day. It has become a big issue. Coming soon watch for paying when you park in a resort's parking lot then go across the road to ski in the backcountry.