Autolocking or screw gate

David Kerkeslager wrote:

 The magnetrons will lose their magnetism 

Definitely go for the magnetron, the day it loses it magnetism, it’s likely gravity is also taking a day off and you’ll know its time to send your project. 

Sean Post wrote: Keep in mind also that if you want to transition into ice/alpine/multipitch, the extra expense, complexity and weight of auto-lockers (and, in the case of Magnetrons, the tendency for snow to get stuck in the notches) will become a serious liability.

I have to firmly disagree here. Originally I only used screw gates. On a long route where I needed to make a complex anchor (four tiny pieces spread out) I put the belay device on in guide mode and locked it. Then I decided to move cloves to shift angles and undid the master point. When I put it back on I threw the rope into guide mode and began belaying my second. Mid pitch I looked down to realize that I had not spun the screw gate securing the atc to the master point the second time, only the rope biner was locked. It was 7pm over 2,500 feet into the route and we had left the car at 1am. The alpine is exactly the time for autolockers, take one more potential out of the system.

autolockers are faster than screw gates and the new designs are very easy. I’m partial to grivels twin gates, extremely easy to operate one handed. The models with an outer wire are hands down the least likely to freeze locker possible. 

Depends a lot on the auto locker:
- Twist gate; not that secure
- Tri gate; more secure, harder to open.
- Ball lock; very secure, hard to open <--- personal choice for belaying with HMS, as it seems to be the safest option.
- Magnet/pinch lock; secure and easy to use.  
- slide lock; not that secure
- Twin gate; Very secure; most pain in the backside to add a knot in. (i do use them in my ice climb anchor system, where I just use an adjustable sling)

In all cases; if you want to put a clove hitch on the biner; any auto lock is just more annoying then a still open screw. An open screw is easy to operate one-handed while adding a knot; auto locker generally isn't.

I personally prefer screws in most applications, because i prefer simple systems with knots for anchors/self belay. I also put on a red stripe on the screw gate, that is only visible when the screw is open. (Petzl biners comes with that out of the factory, but i add them to other biners with nail polish as well)

If you're forgetting the screw gate what else are you forgetting?  YGD

You shouldn't  rely on the type of equipment to save you from yourself.  You should get better at double/triple checking and then pick the equipment you like best. 

Learn to buddy check instead of buying some new biners. Your partners should learn to buddy check too. 

Here in the Sierra, magnets attract iron particles and quickly become clogged. Develop a powerful double-check habit. It's really the only way, no matter what gear you use.

If we are talking about your personal belay/rap 'biner, auto lock is very convenient but of course not mandatory. An auto lock "pearabiner" shape is very common for that purpose.

If you carry a specific 'biner as your personal anchor 'biner (i.e. the one you keep on a PAS) it has different requirements and the choices are slightly more complicated. But a standard-sized manual screwlock will certainly do the job. I like to use an anchor 'biner with a distinct color to minimize possible confusion when unclipping.

I have no opinion on the magnetron but loss of magnetism is not a concern. You will replace your personal 'biner due to rope wear long before the magnets stop working. Like a thousand years before.

Easy - The Perfect Carabiner. 

Personally I use everything, and there is no harm in trying everything either, except that some are pricey.  The only thing I don't like are the dual action auto lockers because they are so easy to roll open, I feel like they should only be used when you always have two and at that point a non locker would also be ok.  

I personally favor triple action auto lockers for belay devices.  I favor the small magnetrons for going into bolts i.e. PAS, TR anchors etc.  They are easy to use one handed and the nose isn't too big and hard to fit through a hanger that's already being used for something.  For biners that the rope goes through I prefer the petzl spirit screwlock with the red YGD marks, I like the YGD mark even though you shouldn't rely on that, but the main reason is that it's easier to get the rope through than most other screw gates I've tried.  Clipping the rope into a  unlocked spirit screwgate is almost as easy/fast as clipping a non locking biner.  They are also pretty damn light, and not too small.  If you have to hold or twist the biner open then it's harder to clip the rope, particularly one handed.  

I've also tried the grivel twingates which are ok, and nice and cheap, and although some tasks they are as quick as a non locker, other tasks they are more of a hassle.  Again like the petzl screwgates they do have the advantage of being easy to visually check as locked.

Magnets do lose their magnetism by exposure to other magnetic fields which cause the polarization of the magnet to mis-align. I don't know how long that will take for the Magnetrons because they haven't been out that long, like I said, it's just a durability concern, and I wouldn't be surprised if time proves that it's not an issue. But given there are well-documented problems with helmets with magnetic clasps losing magnetism, it's not farfetched. Strong magnets wouldn't be a concern for a very long time, but they may have to use a weaker magnet to make it possible/easy to open.

Blakevan wrote: If you're forgetting the screw gate what else are you forgetting?  YGD

You shouldn't  rely on the type of equipment to save you from yourself.  You should get better at double/triple checking and then pick the equipment you like best. 

If you're forgetting to double back your harness, what else are you forgetting?

If you're forgetting to put a finishing knot on your bowline, what else are you forgetting?

We should definitely do everything in the most complex way possible so that we have to remember as many things as possible, because using gear and simplifying our processes can only cause us to get out of the habit of checking everything that we don't have to check. /s

I just logged into MP to share this article I published on this very topic! I'll post it here and in a new thread for anyone interested: northeastalpinestart.com/20…

Nick Drake wrote:

I have to firmly disagree here. Originally I only used screw gates. On a long route where I needed to make a complex anchor (four tiny pieces spread out) I put the belay device on in guide mode and locked it. Then I decided to move cloves to shift angles and undid the master point. When I put it back on I threw the rope into guide mode and began belaying my second. Mid pitch I looked down to realize that I had not spun the screw gate securing the atc to the master point the second time, only the rope biner was locked. It was 7pm over 2,500 feet into the route and we had left the car at 1am. The alpine is exactly the time for autolockers, take one more potential out of the system.

autolockers are faster than screw gates and the new designs are very easy. I’m partial to grivels twin gates, extremely easy to operate one handed. The models with an outer wire are hands down the least likely to freeze locker possible. 

Screw gates like the Petzl Spirit and Photon Lock are about 10g lighter than even vaporlock magnetrons. I guess it pretty much comes down to whether you think that reduced weight or somewhat less potential for human failure makes you safer in the alpine. No skin off my back if I see you or anyone else with auto-lockers in the alpine--you had to earn it by lugging them up there. 

I got auto lockers for my pas. And a tripple action auto locker for belay device...

I have screw gates for anchor building. Petzl red is deads... I have edelrid bullet proof hms screws for setting a top rope.

For accessories and racking gear and slings I have simple wire gates.

My petzl auto lovker for pas is dual action. Three for gri gri I should clarify.

One handed operation is awesome on an auto locker. Especially when you're working outside in cold temps with big gloves. 

David Fox wrote:

How does a magnet lose it's magnetism? That should be impossible for a natural magnet.

Certainly not impossible. Permanent magnets magnets create magnetic fields by having all the small magnetic domains within them aligned in the same orientaion, creating a net north and south pole for the entire magnet. When all those smaller domains become unaligned their individual magnetic domains point in random directions and thus there is zero net magnetic field. 

Over time from dropping magnets or vibrating them the domains become unaligned and it looses its magnetic field. This is why there are machines specifically built to remagnatize permanent magnets. The other way they can loose magnetic field is with heat which allows the domains to move out of alignment again. I can post some videos of cool experiments demonstrating this later.
I am not sure how much this would effect the magnetron biners but i would assume that they will continue to work for years

Tl,dr:
Magnets absolutely loose their magnetic strength with vibration, exposure to magnetic fields, dropping them and heat but i doubt it would be a big deal for the magnetron

Auto locking for belay device. Screw gates for the rest is how I roll.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Auto locking for belay device. Screw gates for the rest is how I roll.

I thought that only noobs used lockers. Change of heart my friend? ;)

eli poss wrote:

I thought that only noobs used lockers. Change of heart my friend? ;)

No. But it seems you completely have been unable to grasp my posts young padawan learner.

(Virtually) everyone uses a locking carabiner of some type for their belay device, as there is no alternative, if they use a belay device.

Alpinists that actually know something like Jim Donini and Steve House use them as little as possible (one in Donini's case) despite House et al making infomercials for an intended newb audience for their sponsors. We went over this and I was proved correct by getting direct answers to the question (an appeal to a higher authority) by one of the finest American Alpinists in history and from Mikey Schaefer who was climbing recently with House and relayed his actual practice. Mikey is also a badass with Alpinist Cred, is one of the producers of Free Solo and has notable FA ascents too.

There are a variety of uses for screw gates when rigging a haul and I use them in my jugging set up (not everyone does). Other than that, belay device and big walling you don't need lockers and should minimize them for efficiency.

When you grasp that you will have learned something about climbing. Less is more.

Sean Post wrote:

Screw gates like the Petzl Spirit and Photon Lock are about 10g lighter than even vaporlock magnetrons. I guess it pretty much comes down to whether you think that reduced weight or somewhat less potential for human failure makes you safer in the alpine. No skin off my back if I see you or anyone else with auto-lockers in the alpine--you had to earn it by lugging them up there. 

Nice try, but if you really want to be a weight weannie grivel has your spirit and photons bested by another 6 grams. https://weighmyrack.com/Carabiner/Grivel-Plume-K3G

Offset D shaped biners are going to be lighter by design than pear/HMS shaped biners (which the vaporlock is). Use each where they are appropriate. Offset D is not appropriate for using tube style belay devices and won't accept a munter well, you really ought to have at least one of your lockers be an HMS shape. The new i beam attache is a decent standard to base off, it's 56 grams. You can get the edelrid HMS strike slider at a whopping 62 grams: https://weighmyrack.com/Carabiner/Edelrid-HMS-Strike-Slider

Compare apples to oranges if you wish, but the reality is that you can set up three appropriate autolockers for the same exact weight as three screw gates. More importantly though, if 30 grams total (10gr per biner) makes a difference in your ability to get up a route or not you are woefully unprepared to be climbing in the alpine, period. 

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

No. But it seems you completely have been unable to grasp my posts young padawan learner.

(Virtually) everyone uses a locking carabiner of some type for their belay device, as there is no alternative, if they use a belay device.

Alpinists that actually know something like Jim Donini and Steve House use them as little as possible (one in Donini's case) despite House et al making infomercials for an intended newb audience for their sponsors. We went over this and I was proved correct by getting direct answers to the question (an appeal to a higher authority) by one of the finest American Alpinists in history and from Mikey Schaefer who was climbing recently with House and relayed his actual practice. Mikey is also a badass with Alpinist Cred, is one of the producers of Free Solo and has notable FA ascents too.

There are a variety of uses for screw gates when rigging a haul and I use them in my jugging set up (not everyone does). Other than that, belay device and big walling you don't need lockers and should minimize them for efficiency.

When you grasp that you will have learned something about climbing. Less is more.

Actually, I totally grasp your posts, I was just making a joke and poking fun at you.

I actually met Jim Donini 2 weeks ago climbing outside of Ouray. We were passing him and another old timer (and I saw that endearingly, not in a demeaning way) at the top of the 4th pitch (on a 6 pitch route) as we were rapping down. Jim was belaying off an alpine draw clipped to one of the bolts using an ATC-Guide in guide mode with one locker clipped to the rope.

Then later, back at the car, he was telling us a story about climbing a very difficult peak in the Karakorum with the Lowe brothers where they had to descend a mere 100 meters from the summit because one of the team was suffering severe altitude sickness. Unfortunately he didn't make it, and the peak still has yet to see an ascent today.