If someone ever says there's no barriers to female climbers, this is what I say

Nate Tastic wrote:

Not all questions are meant to be answered. Or ever can be. You are young still. One day you may understand this to be the case. In the meantime, for this particular question, taking the cynical perspective to fill the void of not knowing is most likely misguided. I'm older and also do not know this to be the case but, I believe (not a truth or fact rather, opinion) that women, for whatever reason prefer other endevours than climbing. I support them should they choose to knit and do crafts (I saw no men and many women in Johanns yesterday; antedotal, I know) or a million other things instead of climbing.

I think stranger unknowns have come to be known. Even if it’s true that women are more interested in other activities, why? Is it the way women are socialized? Is it what their friends do? Is it so-called biology? What other dozens of possibilities are there? I’d have trouble accepting that this there’s no answers to this, and the fact that many people don’t care enough to think about it is part of why I’m interested in it.

Lisa S wrote:

I think stranger unknowns have come to be known. Even if it’s true that women are more interested in other activities, why? Is it the way women are socialized? Is it what their friends do? Is it so-called biology? What other dozens of possibilities are there? I’d have trouble accepting that this there’s no answers to this, and the fact that many people don’t care enough to think about it is part of why I’m interested in it.

over the past few years this issue is the main issue that is getting harped on and talked about constantly in the psychology circles.   you might want to form your search elsewhere for these answers than MP... i guarantee this is not a climber specific issue ;) https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/

here's a sobering statistic on female body strength.  have you ever watched Olympic Shot Put?   here's a sport where you don't have to put your life on the line... it's old as shit... and yet... even today, the women throw a weight that is nearly half as heavy to reach the same distances as the men... and even with that... only the top 4 women put up a distance as long as the top 25 men  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_put#Women

what i'm getting at is that the biological deck is stacked nowhere near 50/50, so... it should be amazing that there are even as many women climbing as there are now..

It also occurs to me, thinking about your observation in Yosemite, that maybe the question you want to ask is if there are particular barriers to trad climbing for women that aren't there for men. 

J Squared wrote: what i'm getting at is that the biological deck is stacked nowhere near 50/50, so... it should be amazing that there are even as many women climbing as there are now..

When is Beth Roden's route Meltdown (5.14+) gonna get a repeat by a man (or anyone)?

Given the history of misogyny it is not amazing that there aren't more women climbers.

But the Sports Physiologists that work with Gymnasts say there is no athlete on Earth that has a better strength to weight ratio than a young woman.

Tell me again why their aren't more women climbers.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

When is Beth Roden's route Meltdown (5.14+) gonna get a repeat by a man (or anyone)?

Given the history of misogyny it is not amazing that there aren't more women climbers.

But the Sports Physiologists that work with Gymnasts say there is no athlete on Earth that has a better strength to weight ratio than a young woman.

Tell me again why their aren't more women climbers.

Please quit mansplaining your opinions. You aren't even a female and its honestly degrading to women that you think you need to defend them. Your noble white knight actions are perhaps the most sexist part of this discussion as they imply that women are too weak to stand up for themselves.

A quick look through your comment history shows you aren't the most…noble, social justice warrior out there. So please bro, tone down the hypocrisy. We don't need to be doused in your angry spray.

Lisa S wrote:

I don’t buy it because I don’t have any good reasons to think it is. Like with anything, if I had  convincing reasons or argument in support of it, I’d be inclined to believe it. 

If you are looking to gain some perspective on the topic, I suggest you start by doing a little googling the subject of hormones and behavior. You are at a college? Talk to a professor of neuroscience or endocrinology if they are available.

But first you have to accept that human behavior is influenced by brain physiology and chemistry. Some people are uncomfortable with that reality and refuse to accept it.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Please quit mansplaining your opinions. You aren't even a female and its honestly degrading to women that you think you need to defend them. Your noble white knight actions are perhaps the most sexist part of this discussion as they imply that women are too weak to stand up for themselves.

A quick look through your comment history shows you aren't the most…noble, social justice warrior out there. So please bro, tone down the hypocrisy. We don't need to be doused in your angry spray.

You on the other hand actually do have a history of sexist and racist opinions:

You Said:

"I don't think this sport is for weaklings. If you are so weak that passive, indirect, intangible things influence your experience...what are you doing?? How are you going to handle a lead climb, or going for it on a tall boulder, or being scared a couple hundred feet up? "

I couldn't have made you any more sexist than you yourself did right there.

So I'm thinking if I have struck a nerve with you calling out your racist (in other threads) and sexist posts so I am a-ok with that and am probably headed in the right direction.

Now, other than telling some noobs that they are gumbys polluting serious discussions about climbing you go right ahead and find some "social justice" cause I am on the wrong side of and we'll have that debate too if you'd like.

Don't stress it. Once women climbers rock the Olympics and climbing gets further publicized with role models young women will pack the gyms.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Please quit mansplaining your opinions. You aren't even a female and its honestly degrading to women that you think you need to defend them. Your noble white knight actions are perhaps the most sexist part of this discussion as they imply that women are too weak to stand up for themselves.

Do you ever positively contribute, Greg, or do you just show up from time to time to share your opinion that other people shouldn't share theirs?

J Squared wrote:
what i'm getting at is that the biological deck is stacked nowhere near 50/50, so... it should be amazing that there are even as many women climbing as there are now..

Hmm... Way to come across as both insulting and ignorant!

It's funny how one camp will argue that women are "naturally" better climbers in the beginning, as another camp will argue that women are "naturally" worse climbers due to their inferior strength. That is what you're saying, right? Both of these arguments aim to erase the experiences that women share. One group says, "Women are naturally better climbers, so there are no barriers." The other says, "Women are naturally worse climbers, so we should be thankful that any are climbing at all."

Of course there are biological differences that play into sports and performance. Men have more muscle mass than women on average. That is certainly a relevant biological difference. But women can and have become strong, world class climbers! So why are there still places in which men outnumber the women who are climbing? I have seen it often too. I would add that this gap widens as the climbing specializes: there are fewer women leading, placing gear, climbing multi pitch, ice climbing, leading ice, and so on. 

As I said before, just because YOU personally haven't experienced something, that doesn't mean it flat out doesn't exist. Of course people look at their own experiences, and if those don't match up with what a different person has said, it is easy to dismiss how someone else feels or what they say is true for them. Just because your gym or your climbing team is a 50/50 split doesn't mean that everywhere is like that, or that it wasn't harder for certain people to get there.

In my mind, the idea of a "barrier" in climbing doesn't mean that women are simply blocked from climbing. Or that women try climbing, perceive a barrier, and give up. I think it is just harder for women than men to get into climbing, improve at it, and really excel to advanced levels. Of course some people will say this is all about the individual and their work ethic, but I would say that there are systems of power and oppression in the US (and most of the world) that back this up. There are many, many reasons why this happens and these reasons are connected to the systems of power.

Señor Arroz wrote:

Do you ever positively contribute, Greg, or do you just show up from time to time to share your opinion that other people shouldn't share theirs?

I contribute plenty! Including opinions that differ from yours and your utopia where we all get along and sing kumbaya. I agree and like many of your comments on the technical discussions. It’s the morality and values discussions where we disagree. I can still be friends with people I disagree with. Can you?

I think its important for this 'progressive' community to hear some opposing opinions even if garners myself a lot of hate and getting called a racist (absolutely untrue, no proof) because I disagree with someone. It takes a lot more courage to have my real name and picture here and state my beliefs than hiding behind a anonymous avatar.

Harumfster is without a doubt to anyone, a huge jerk in the way he sprays his opinion so he should be called out. His main account was deleted because he was such a jerk!

I found the original post interesting because I don't share most those thoughts.  I appreciate hearing a different perspective though.  Regarding specific points brought up:

1. "Indoor climbing puts beginners right next to experts":  This is a huge benefit to learning, not a negative thing.  I love watching crushers warm up on my project - it helps me figure out how to do it.  

2.  "When you first start climbing, you naturally think its all about strength":  Not my experience at all.  I suppose I was lucky enough to start climbing with people who stressed technique.  They also made it clear to me that some of the best climbers were pre-teen girls.  I disagree that there are fewer routes that a complete beginner woman can climb than a complete beginner man.  Although, maybe this could be the case in the gym if routes are poorly set with the difficulty of routes being entirely related to how reachy the move is.

3.  "Women don't have the confidence to get in there and actually take a turn on the wall" - Ok, this one I can admit to understanding. However, if I fail on the first move of a boulder problem, perhaps someone else will have the courage to also fail on something.  Failing without embarrassment is contagious.  Plus, if I fail, someone may provide advice that ultimately helps me.  Also, I don't know how many times I've been chilling in front of a boulder problem at the gym, only to have someone (usually a dude) ask if I want a turn.  Perhaps bouldering etiquette at your university gym should be part of the orientation.

4. Lack of experienced mentors due to more male than female climbers:   If you are sport climbing or bouldering, I think you can improve/learn with someone equally as experienced/inexperienced as you, as long as you have the safety part down.  (Disclaimer - I did not learn this way.  I learned from my boyfriend, now husband.  I imagine that learning with someone could be very rewarding though).  

Hopefully I didn't just repeat what others have already said.  I didn't have time to read through all the replies.  

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

I contribute plenty! Including opinions that differ from yours and your utopia where we all get along and sing kumbaya. I agree and like many of your comments on the technical discussions. It’s the morality and values discussions where we disagree.

But, it's interesting then, how quick you are to personalize and name call. For example, Lisa who started this thread is a college-aged woman pursuing a line of inquiry. But your first reaction to her was this: What I care about is people that "need" special treatment.  And demand I walk on eggshells and roll out the red carpet for them. I don't think this sport is for weaklings. If you are so weak that passive, indirect, intangible things influence your experience...what are you doing?? How are you going to handle a lead climb, or going for it on a tall boulder, or being scared a couple hundred feet up?

Really? She, or women who share her position are demanding that YOU "walk on eggshells" or that you "roll out the red carpet?" I don't think she wants that from you at all. Oh, and then let's go on to insinuate that someone who feels the way she does is a "weakling." All over her opinion that there are a lot of barriers to women climbing. Nice!

I have female partners that have had bad experiences with male belayers because they were looking at other women, and not the belay, at the gym. And machismo partners spraying constant unwanted beta. And dudes who sweetly offer mentorship and get annoyed that they're in "the friend zone."

You should be able to take up climbing without having those be normal and re-occurring situations. 

Kari V wrote:

In my mind, the idea of a "barrier" in climbing doesn't mean that women are simply blocked from climbing. Or that women try climbing, perceive a barrier, and give up. I think it is just harder for women than men to get into climbing, improve at it, and really excel to advanced levels. Of course some people will say this is all about the individual and their work ethic, but I would say that there are systems of power and oppression in the US (and most of the world) that back this up. There are many, many reasons why this happens and these reasons are connected to the systems of power.

Are you saying that less women get into climbing and improve at it because of systems of power and oppression? 

Lisa S wrote: I work at my university’s climbing wall...

So this is more of a theory than something I’ve observed. Almost every woman I know who climbs seriously has a boyfriend who also does. Due to the gender imbalance in climbing, this makes sense. But the problem is that when you’re a beginner climber, you need mentors to help teach you technique/strategy in order to improve, and of course partners. A lot of women feel most comfortable when another woman is in this role, but if all the ladies are out climbing with their boyfriends (as I’ll admit I often am, he’s for sure my most comfortable, enjoyable partner - duh!), who’s going to partner and mentor the newbies? Hopefully a kind dude or the rare available lady, but very often it’ll be a guy that’s interested in being more than just a climbing partner. To have the patience to leave your buddies and climb with someone several grades lower than you is usually motivated by something. And thus, this makes improving at climbing less accessible for women who aren’t interested in or available for flirting or romantic relationships.
Note that ALL of these are independent of men treating women negatively directly, which I think what most male climbers envision when they think of barriers to female climbers. This can obviously be an issue too, though not one I’ve experienced directly.

Based on personal observations, I'm guessing that these two things are related.  Two of my mentors are guys, and they are more than happy to belay me at my grades, and climb what I'm climbing while teaching and mentoring.  They're also really great at challenging me to try new and harder things.  And I'm happy to belay for however long it takes them to work the moves on their current insane project, it's a two way street.  They are also my age-ish or older, and we all have non-climbing S.O.s, and all we all want are regular, reliable climbing partners.  This has actually been my experience with most of the post-college crowd I climb with both male and female.  The younger, college or just post graduate group I more occasionally climb with, tends to fit your second description more, not universally, but more.

I tried joining up with a women's climbing group at my gym, and the culture was too touchy feely for me, I think this is partly just me, I've been a tomboy forever and grew up climbing and backpacking and am perfectly comfortable in those largely male dominated environments as they are.  I also found that in this particular group  most of the women were college aged or just post-graduate, and climbing because their S.O.s did.   I enjoyed (and still enjoy) climbing with them at the gym from time to time, but if we went outside, it would go from being a women's group to a general group and frequently they only wanted to climb with the S.O., which meant always having to track down an extra partner for these trips or being a perpetual third wheel.  I still go to their events whenever they get organized, because I think supporting other women in climbing is important, but I'm no longer part of a regular "group".

A system of power found in climbing.

This is a university climbing gym, which means: We are talking about a teaching environment. The point is to get people to try new things. Young adults. Perhaps very young. 

With that in mind, I believe the perspective changes. It is not, "if you don't have the initiative to climb, that's your problem". That is entirely contrary to the mission of a university. 

So. Yes, it's freaking intimidating, sheesh people. What to do? 

I do like the idea of a Women's Wednesdays, or something like that. Open to all, preferably staffed by women. For starters, seeing women on the staff sends a message that this is something other women can consider doing. Same with setting.

Yes, this is a "sexist" statement, but seeing a bunch of women climbing will also be less intimidating to new guys. Clearly, it's something anyone can try, if girls can do it, right? 

New climbers will also do best if they "climb like a girl", lol! Forget that upper body strength, watch the feet (it's always the feet, it seems??), place them carefully, and work the hands up. Don't over grip, that sort of thing.

Last? Unless something has radically changed in recent decades, for 17-20 year olds? A group that let's people meet others, is simply more fun. Have the early evening Women's night, open climbing right after, and I'll bet the ladies stick around, and the guys show up. 

Best, OLH

sarahd wrote: I found the original post interesting because I don't share most those thoughts.  I appreciate hearing a different perspective though.  Regarding specific points brought up:

1. "Indoor climbing puts beginners right next to experts":  This is a huge benefit to learning, not a negative thing.  I love watching crushers warm up on my project - it helps me figure out how to do it.  

2.  "When you first start climbing, you naturally think its all about strength":  Not my experience at all.  I suppose I was lucky enough to start climbing with people who stressed technique.  They also made it clear to me that some of the best climbers were pre-teen girls.  I disagree that there are fewer routes that a complete beginner woman can climb than a complete beginner man.  Although, maybe this could be the case in the gym if routes are poorly set with the difficulty of routes being entirely related to how reachy the move is.

3.  "Women don't have the confidence to get in there and actually take a turn on the wall" - Ok, this one I can admit to understanding. However, if I fail on the first move of a boulder problem, perhaps someone else will have the courage to also fail on something.  Failing without embarrassment is contagious.  Plus, if I fail, someone may provide advice that ultimately helps me.  Also, I don't know how many times I've been chilling in front of a boulder problem at the gym, only to have someone (usually a dude) ask if I want a turn.  Perhaps bouldering etiquette at your university gym should be part of the orientation.

4. Lack of experienced mentors due to more male than female climbers:   If you are sport climbing or bouldering, I think you can improve/learn with someone equally as experienced/inexperienced as you, as long as you have the safety part down.  (Disclaimer - I did not learn this way.  I learned from my boyfriend, now husband.  I imagine that learning with someone could be very rewarding though).  

Hopefully I didn't just repeat what others have already said.  I didn't have time to read through all the replies.  

Thanks for sharing your experience!

Kari V wrote:

It's funny how one camp will argue that women are "naturally" better climbers in the beginning, as another camp will argue that women are "naturally" worse climbers due to their inferior strength. That is what you're saying, right? Both of these arguments aim to erase the experiences that women share. One group says, "Women are naturally better climbers, so there are no barriers." The other says, "Women are naturally worse climbers, so we should be thankful that any are climbing at all."

If by "camp" you're referring to my comment, then you should expound to include the whole of what I was saying.  I said as beginners, women are inherently better climbers because most don't adopt or gravitate naturally to the "I can muscle my way up this"- and so they're more thoughtful and employ more balance, and deliberate body positioning when climbing.  As a beginner, I would argue that training technique is or should be prioritized over anything else, because it's where the most gains will be seen as a beginner.  Not to mention many women are more flexible than men- on average.  Of course making blanket statements that apply to an entire group is nonsense.  Human physiology and human beings in general are quite complex.  So, no one actually said "Women are naturally better climbers, so there are no barriers".  That's a strawman.  What was actually said was beginner climbers that are women, are usually better than beginner climbers that are men for X, Y and Z reasons, so the "men are inherently stronger so that's a barrier to women" is just not true.  No part of it is true- especially if one adopts the concept than generally speaking (strength to weight ratio) that women are not inherently weaker than men- which is itself a gross over-generalization that lends itself to being utterly pointless when spoken.

Of course there are biological differences that play into sports and performance. Men have more muscle mass than women on average. That is certainly a relevant biological difference. But women can and have become strong, world class climbers! So why are there still places in which men outnumber the women who are climbing? I have seen it often too. I would add that this gap widens as the climbing specializes: there are fewer women leading, placing gear, climbing multi pitch, ice climbing, leading ice, and so on.

You're right.  There are.  Do you think it's some agenda from the climbing community or from male climbers in general, or do you think it's a result solely of male behavior?  Do you think there may be something in the female psyche that differs from the male psyche that results in less women being drawn to the specialized climbing arena vs. men?  I honestly don't know.  If I were to propose a hypothesis and start studying it, I would say that the reason behind it is as complex as the human psyche and physiology.  There are likely a multitude of factors involved in why women have a higher ratio in some geographical areas rather than others.  There are probably cultural reasons.  There is probably some oppression in the form of harassment or other social barriers too.  The point is that to say "it's this, or it's that" on such a wide ranging topic that has tons of influential factors, is a superficial way to view it.

 

As I said before, just because YOU personally haven't experienced something, that doesn't mean it flat out doesn't exist. Of course people look at their own experiences, and if those don't match up with what a different person has said, it is easy to dismiss how someone else feels or what they say is true for them. Just because your gym or your climbing team is a 50/50 split doesn't mean that everywhere is like that, or that it wasn't harder for certain people to get there.

In my mind, the idea of a "barrier" in climbing doesn't mean that women are simply blocked from climbing. Or that women try climbing, perceive a barrier, and give up. I think it is just harder for women than men to get into climbing, improve at it, and really excel to advanced levels. Of course some people will say this is all about the individual and their work ethic, but I would say that there are systems of power and oppression in the US (and most of the world) that back this up. There are many, many reasons why this happens and these reasons are connected to the systems of power.

The systems of power.  That's a general term that gets thrown around a lot in SJW and PC culture.  That's a catchall and it's lazy, and it impedes meaningful sharing of ideas and discussion.  If you're going to make an argument, try to outline specifically how power systems that involve patriarchy, discrimination, sexism, etc. that exist in other arenas transfer specifically to climbing and then translate into barriers against women.  That sounds like a really complex and daunting task- because it is.  But in order to make that argument (or any argument on a complex topic) cogently, that should probably at least be attempted.  

To be clear, I think that some (barriers) exist, but I'm not convinced that part of what we're seeing with generally less women in climbing and in the elite levels of climbing isn't a result of benign, inherent hormonal, cultural or psychological differences between men and women.  I think it's a combination of things, and I don't think there's enough data that exists to make an absolute call one way or the other.