If someone ever says there's no barriers to female climbers, this is what I say

Lisa, are you from SLO? Have you climbed a lot at the other gyms in town? Do you see the same dynamics there as at the University wall?

I'm curious simply because I live in LA and climb at a big, very successful climbing gym. One of the best indoor facilities in the country, probably. I'd say that we're near gender parity on either MM or FF climbing pairs. With probably a similar number of MF pairs. The gender mix in bouldering is about the same. I think the gym staff probably tips toward more F and the GM is a woman.

My adolescent daughter is one of the best young climbers at the gym and is something of a local "rock star." She gets lots of attention from gym regulars and I'm particularly grateful for the mentoring or role-modeling provided by some of the kick-ass grown women here. Truthfully, I don't think I could ask for a better environment for a young woman coming up in the sport. 

I'm not saying this to brag but, rather, to suggest that if you're looking into ways to change the experience at your job at the climbing wall there are probably good people to talk to nearby. Send a PM if you want to get connected to them.

Lisa S wrote: 

I don't really see why 50/50 participation in "average" climbing (ie not like 5.13 and up) should be unreasonable, would you mind explaining the assumptions you reference?

I don't mean at all to apply it arbitrarily or apply it to anything else at all really, just climbing.

The assumption that biological differences between genders would have no influence on behavior and personal preference.

But I think you already knew what I was referencing.

However I think most climbers my age (and I am young, I know this isn't true for the older gen) started at a gym because you don't need anything - no partner, no knowledge, no gear - and then progressing to climbing outside once they acquired those things and enough enthusiasm. Because of this and the profound widespreadness of gyms, I think what I said is still relevant.

There are many ways to frame a situation.  Instead of being frustrated by the bouldering queue, why not be happy that you have a convenient climbing gym?

I'm really not trying to talk down to you, but it does seem that you are exaggerating what is is at most a minor issue.

Ocalslay Onlyyay wrote:

TLDR stop raising your sons to be assholes

Or raising them to troll the interwebs....;)

What I care about is people that "need" special treatment.  And demand I walk on eggshells and roll out the red carpet for them. I don't think this sport is for weaklings. If you are so weak that passive, indirect, intangible things influence your experience...what are you doing?? How are you going to handle a lead climb, or going for it on a tall boulder, or being scared a couple hundred feet up?

Perception is reality. I see in OP's post among many of these posts, the words "I think…I feel…it seems…". All these perceptions of reality without any tangible proof for statements. If you perceive barriers you will realize them.  If you look at the world as oppressive that is all you will see. There are plenty of examples of 'minorities' absolutely crushing it. The only real barriers are the ones you put on yourself.

Physical barriers: men only climbing gyms (how many of them do we have?)
Mental barriers: #1, #2, #3 and #4 in the original post

Should we rename this topic as "Mental barriers in female climbers"?

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote: If you are so weak that passive, indirect, intangible things influence your experience...what are you doing?? How are you going to handle a lead climb, or going for it on a tall boulder, or being scared a couple hundred feet up?

Perception is reality. I see in OP's post among many of these posts, the words "I think…I feel…it seems…". All these perceptions of reality without any tangible proof for statements. If you perceive barriers you will realize them.  If you look at the world as oppressive that is all you will see. There are plenty of examples of 'minorities' absolutely crushing it. The only real barriers are the ones you put on yourself.

This is a classic argument from someone who refuses to recognize that oppression and sexism/racism/etc are real. As a member of the dominant group (White, male)- I presume- you don't need to be aware and sensitive to these kinds of things. So just because you haven't experienced something means it doesn't happen to anyone? Interesting. Whether you choose to remain unaware or not, you benefit from your privilege! 

Food for thought on power and perception, since you all seem to be passionate about it: https://www.dhss.delaware.gov/dsamh/files/perception1192.pdf

don'tchuffonme wrote: This is not a barrier, and it's not a barrier to women.  This is insecure people being insecure and not having enough self esteem to not illogically compare themselves to someone that has dedicated years to it.  Unless you're going to concede that most women are naturally insecure and illogical, then this isn't a barrier for women.  People that have common sense realize that they're not going to be as good as someone that's been doing it for years.  If beginners can't keep from getting discouraged and take into account that it requires effort and dedication to advance through difficulty, then this is not the problem of the experienced or male climber.
When you first start climbing, this is what most people think.  By your third or fourth time, unless you're completely obtuse or not very good at observation, you realize nothing could be further from the truth.  Women, as a general rule, are better climbers than men when we're talking about beginners.  This is because they don't begin with the mentality and perception of being able to use brute strength to get up something.  They look at climbing more strategically, and in doing so, inherently make better use of their feet, hips and body position.  So I propose the exact opposite of what you're saying, and disagree that this is a female-specific barrier.  It is not.  Nor has it ever been.
Someone being timid and intimidated is not a barrier, unless you count that person as being a barrier to themselves.  No one is telling you that you can't get on and try.  No one is telling you that someone working a V6 has more right to be there and get more tries than someone working a V2.  These are things you are imposing on yourself.  So, if it is a barrier, it's a self-imposed one, and not really a barrier because you're a woman.
This is probably the only legit one you've mentioned.  There certainly are predatory male behaviors that women need to be aware of and vigilant to, and having to worry about shit like that- shit that guys don't have to worry about, detracts from the experience.  I have a few young female climber friends that deal with that, and it sucks for them.  If their normal partners aren't available, they are approached, borderline accosted by men looking to "climb" with them.  Thirsty dudes use it as an ice-breaker, and the climbing is secondary to the men at that point.  This does happen, and it does suck.  It also sucks that you even have to deal with it and can't just go climbing without having to consciously categorize and identify guys whose first priority is ass, not climbing.
Men are beginners too.  I don't think people should be intentionally disparaging to new climbers.  I also don't think they should be coddled and get preferential treatment.  Should these stronger more experienced climbers not climb so hard, or should they say "hey, I'm about to flash this rig, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, should I fall once or twice so you feel like this is a more inclusive environment?"

See how ridiculous that sounds?

Be tenacious.  Be observant.  Don't compare yourself to others.  Beware the thirsty douchewad.

All but one of your barriers aren't barriers.  It's whining.  I know plenty of women that will tell you the same thing- and they all climb harder than me.

I understand all this, and it's definitely been food for thought. However these are things I watch play out before my eyes. The fact still remains that way more men climb than women (at least in my experience), and what Mae Rae said is very true, not everyone should be a climber, of course no one should force anyone who doesn't want to. But when I see the ratio of men to women climbing that I usually see, something just seems amiss, because I find it hard to believe that women are just naturally less interested in climbing or something like that.

I'd agree with "Be tenacious.  Be observant.  Don't compare yourself to others.  Beware the thirsty douchewad." That's good advice. But I don't think that should be the end of the story because I have trouble accepting anything that says if you’re not X, Y, and Z, you can’t be a climber. Maybe I’m wrong though- it’s hard to become good at anything if you’re not observant and tenacious, and there’ll always be people better than you in everything. Maybe my enthusiasm for watching new climbers progress and fall in love with the sport like I have has led to me having too much desire for everyone to climb when obviously this shouldn’t actually be true.

Obviously I'm not saying this should be everyone's crusade, but I would like to see more than just a few women here and there reaping the benefits of climbing and have given some thought to reasons this could be the case. Maybe there're all wrong, but my experience gives me enough evidence to think not.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

You most certainly did, you discounted the opinion (how she feels) of the OP who I think may have more insight than you as to how (some) women feel about climbing.

Oh man, idk where to start. First, no I did not.  Here's what was said (condensed) by the OP:

1.  I feel intimidated when better climbers climb near me (notice she didn't mention gender).  I think many women climbers feel intimidated this way.  This is a barrier against women climbing.  To which I responded that feeling intimidated by stronger climbers, particularly when the stronger climber gender isn't male, or purposefully imposing a barrier of any kind, and is likely just climbing- probably the same thing that most people at that location are doing, doesn't mean that there is a barrier.  Because it doesn't.  So if disagreement and then tactfully explaining why I disagree is mansplaining, then guilty I guess.  However, and more importantly, yes, she may know how some women feel.  Some is not all.  So if a woman doesn't feel like this, doesn't feel that intimidation, is she less of a woman?  Who is right?  You're suggesting that women are so similar, so uniform emotionally, that because this one young woman feels a certain way then so must other women?  That's presumptuous, and painting an entire gender with a broad brush and dare I say much more offensive than your alleged "mansplaining".  But it's hard to be an old curmudgeon that gets so much satisfaction from degrading those that you deem beneath you that perhaps you're looking to offset that by championing another group.  Maybe you should see a professional.

Its pretty simple. As men established in climbing our job now it to listen and mentor, not #mansplain like you just did.

Don't get all butthurt, I get your feels braj. Its rough being told your opinion about a woman's experience is pretty limited.

I'm not butthurt- whatever the fuck that even means.  I'm defending a position that I feel is valid.  Please feel free to let me know when that last bastion isn't an option any longer in our society.  Until that point, I think I'll just choose to exercise my rights and inject logic where I feel that it's missing.  Oh, and my "opinion" about women's experiences is based solely on what women have told me, so other than the fact that I'm not a woman and don't have the ability to reside inside a woman's psyche, my experience isn't limited. It's fairly extensive.  That's because I do recognize the shitty things that happen to women, especially young, fit women and try to empathize and level the playing field as much as possible from my "male" position.

Or, you know, whatever "braj".  You could just continue being an older guy that senselessly uses words like "butthurt" and "braj" in an attempt to seem relative and relevant in a discussion in which you know as little as the person you're berating.  Because after all, you're just a man too.  So you telling me that "you're a guy you don't know what women think" is actually you saying that you DO know what women think.  Let that sink in for a minute gramps.  Get back to me if you want to have a real discussion that's a thoughtful exchange based on logic and imperical experiences.  Or you could just go back to hackin' on n00bs.  Nawmean braj?

Lisa S wrote:

 I would like to see more than just a few women here and there reaping the benefits of climbing and have given some thought to reasons this could be the case. Maybe there're all wrong, but my experience gives me enough evidence to think not.

With all due respect, I think this is the fallacy. My hunch is that you're taking a valid experience at one climbing wall at one University and universalizing that experience as if it applies everywhere. I travel a lot for work and often visit climbing gyms in other towns. I also live in a big city with a bunch of gyms, most of which I've sampled. And I'm the parent of a young teenage woman climber. So I'm attuned to gender issues. I do see plenty of mansplaining and beta spraying and the occasional stupid "You're really good for a girl" comment. But I hardly see climbing as a deck stacked against female participation. I know women who are the strong leaders on alpine expeditions where they're leading groups of men. I know women who climb only with other women. I actually know women who make a fair amount of money as climbing Instagrammers.  There are a LOT of options out there for women who want to pursue this sport.

Lisa S wrote:

I understand all this, and it's definitely been food for thought. However these are things I watch play out before my eyes. The fact still remains that way more men climb than women (at least in my experience), and what Mae Rae said is very true, not everyone should be a climber, of course no one should force anyone who doesn't want to. But when I see the ratio of men to women climbing that I usually see, something just seems amiss, because I find it hard to believe that women are just naturally less interested in climbing or something like that.

So you think something is amiss because there are more men than women- and that it must be some sort of barrier that men are imposing on women?  Or that the climbing environment in general is imposing?  For the record, I'm just trying to understand, and I'm not trying to invalidate how you feel.  I just think that seeing more of one group than another in any pursuit doesn't automatically mean that a barrier exist.  However, the fourth barrier you mentioned, in my opinion, would be enough to see and warrant the difference in numbers that you report.  It's real, and it happens all the time and is much more prevalent than people think.  A lot of the time it's not spoken about because women have been conditioned somewhat to appreciate male attention.  You see it everywhere in our society.  I think it's horseshit.  I think if a woman wants to climb and is focused on being a better climber, and she has to worry about being hit on, or followed, or ogled, or anything else that is unwanted and sexual in nature, it detracts from the experience and is a deterrent- and that's a valid barrier that is imposed all the time.  So, again, to be clear, I don't think that feeling intimidated by stronger climbers is a barrier unique to women, but being harassed in any form is, and it's fairly common.  And it's easy for men to discount it because it almost never happens to them.

I'd agree with "Be tenacious.  Be observant.  Don't compare yourself to others.  Beware the thirsty douchewad." That's good advice. But I don't think that should be the end of the story because I have trouble accepting anything that says if you’re not X, Y, and Z, you can’t be a climber.

Actually, being observant, being tenacious, disciplined, and humble are absolutely prerequisites to becoming a highly skilled climber.  So, I'm not saying that if you're not these things you can't be a climber.  Anyone can be a "climber" based on how you define the word and your perspective on the subject.  What I'm saying is that to advance through the grades and different climbing endeavors and to build a climbing resume that continually advances, then yes, absolutely if you don't have those things, that's not going to happen.

 Maybe I’m wrong though- it’s hard to become good at anything if you’re not observant and tenacious, and there’ll always be people better than you in everything. Maybe my enthusiasm for watching new climbers progress and fall in love with the sport like I have has led to me having too much desire for everyone to climb when obviously this shouldn’t actually be true.

Every new climber goes through this.  Or more specifically, every new climber that's super stoked on climbing goes through it.  I did it.  I tried to get everyone and their brother involved in climbing because it's so awesome, everyone should be doing it and if they only gave it the chance, they'd love it like me.  Only that's not it.  Not everyone will love it.  In fact, most won't.  There's nothing wrong with wanting to share your passion, and to want to turn someone onto it and have a shared pursuit with someone.  It's an awesome feeling.  All I'm saying is that being unskilled, new and being intimidated by that isn't a barrier for women.   Being a woman and not being endowed with a surplus of upper body strength is not a barrier to women.  It's a blessing actually.  Women are usually more flexible and more thoughtful than their male counterparts.   Letting what others are climbing deter you from being assertive and working in an getting YOUR turn at YOUR project isn't a barrier that's being imposed on you by anyone other than you.

I'll say this again because it bears repeating.  Being harassed or having to worry about the ulterior motives of men that offer to belay, spot you, ask for your number, invite you on a trip, or a visit to the crag is a very real barrier.  I think this SHOULD be everyone's crusade, and I have intentionally made it part of mine.  It started years ago when I was climbing with a young lady for a couple months in the gym and she thanked me one night for never hitting on her and just being a belayer and climbing partner.  I started asking questions, one thing led to another, and as it turns out I learned alot about just how prevalent and damaging it can be.

Obviously I'm not saying this should be everyone's crusade, but I would like to see more than just a few women here and there reaping the benefits of climbing and have given some thought to reasons this could be the case. Maybe there're all wrong, but my experience gives me enough evidence to think not.

I'm not saying at all that they're all wrong- in fact, the last one you mentioned is extremely important for people to understand.  Especially men.  These things you experience and feel are barriers are valid to you.  I just happen to disagree with some of them.  Maybe there is something you felt at the time that isn't being conveyed.  Maybe I'm just wrong.  But I do know quite a few men and women that do get intimidated, so I don't think it can be relegated to just a female barrier.  I think it's a beginner barrier, and one that exists in many sports.  What you've experienced is unique to you, and obviously motivated you enough to create a forum topic.  So you can't be all that intimidated or this would never have happened.  But, as is the nature with all discussions, not everyone will agree with you.  My goal in any discussion is to share ideas and to learn.  

cracks me up how so many of you wannabes use "braj" and "nawmean"

Not sure if I should be flattered or cry

Nawmean?

Cheers

DMT

don'tchuffonme wrote: .
Every new climber goes through this.  Or more specifically, every new climber that's super stoked on climbing goes through it.  I did it.  I tried to get everyone and their brother involved in climbing because it's so awesome, everyone should be doing it and if they only gave it the chance, they'd love it like me.  Only that's not it.  Not everyone will love it.  In fact, most won't.  There's nothing wrong with wanting to share your passion, and to want to turn someone onto it and have a shared pursuit with someone.  It's an awesome feeling.  All I'm saying is that being unskilled, new and being intimidated by that isn't a barrier for women.   Being a woman and not being endowed with a surplus of upper body strength is not a barrier to women.  It's a blessing actually.  Women are usually more flexible and more thoughtful than their male counterparts.   Letting what others are climbing deter you from being assertive and working in an getting YOUR turn at YOUR project isn't a barrier that's being imposed on you by anyone other than you.

Yeah, I went through that period too, cost me a friend or two, haha.

Kindly let me save you from drowning, said the monkey as he put the fish safely up the tree. 

don'tchuffonme

Thanks for your comments, I thought this discussion was really valuable!

Senor Arroz-

Yes you’re right. This is one climbing area and I’m one person, and I didn’t mean to imply whatsoever that what I’ve observed is true everywhere, bc I have no way of knowing that without having gone and observed everywhere or heard from people who have, like you. But my intuition was that my experience isn’t unique, and I’d hoped to get input or examples from other women affirming or disaffirming that.

For another example, I lived and worked in Yosemite Valley this summer with my primary purpose being to climb. I’d hoped to meet some strong, experienced female climbers to befriend and push my limits with, however I was a little disappointed to find that that of the knowledgeable, experienced climbers living there and working for Aramark as well, they were pretty much all men, and this puzzled me too. I  felt like one of the most experienced women I met, and I've been leading trad for not even a year and half!! I chose to discuss the other example because it’s easier to think about/hypothesize about the short journey from non climber to casual gym climber than it is the longer journey from non climber to granite trad climber.

But really the implicit question I’m trying to get at is really why less women than men climb? And that’s what my propositions in my original post were attempts to try to answer. And despite getting plenty of reasons why I’m wrong, no one else has provided any other substantial potential answers to the question. In fact no one else has even tried. I wasn’t really clear about that at all in my post, and maybe I’ll make a new thread for it because that’s what I really want to know. I don’t buy that it’s biology, because I don’t buy for second that women are less interested or capable in climbing than men at a reasonable level, which means there’s other reasons (read - barriers) at play.

This isn’t the case everywhere, and that’s awesome that your gym is about 50/50! I’d be curious as to why that’s true for that gym. But that's clearly not the story everywhere.

Mae Rae wrote:

The assumption that biological differences between genders would have no influence on behavior and personal preference.

But I think you already knew what I was referencing.

I'm really not trying to talk down to you, but it does seem that you are exaggerating what is is at most a minor issue.

I don't think that biological differences make women less capable or interested in climbing, which I guess is where we disagree. And I think that having more rather than fewer women in the sport improves really most women's climbing experience as whole (as well maybe as men's - can't really speak to that myself though), so I don't think it's a minor issue. 

Lisa S wrote: maybe I’ll make a new thread for it because that’s what I really want to know. I don’t buy that it’s biology, because I don’t buy for second that women are less interested or capable in climbing than men at a reasonable level, which means there’s other reasons (read - barriers) at play.

Before making a new thread, why don't you revisit all the existing threads that address this question? This topic has been beaten to death.

The statement "I don't buy that it's biology" is ridiculously closed-minded when talking about differences between the sexes. If you open a discussion with a statement that you are not open to reasonable points of view, then you really are not interested in a conversation.

don'tchuffonme wrote: Nawmean braj?

Go back to telling women how what they feel is what they feel but you disagree with it lol.

You honestly make no sense. Try listening instead of #mansplaining which is all you are doing in this thread.

And yes, mansplaining is biology too, when the masculine is confronted with something their brain can't get around.

Lastly, though Society reflects Biology the problem is that it is the General Views of Society fail when applied to the Specific (individual). That is one of the barriers we all have to overcome.

Mae Rae wrote:

Before making a new thread, why don't you revisit all the existing threads that address this question? This topic has been beaten to death.

The statement "I don't buy that it's biology" is ridiculously closed-minded when talking about differences between the sexes. If you open a discussion with a statement that you are not open to reasonable points of view, then you really are not interested in a conversation.

I don’t buy it because I don’t have any good reasons to think it is. Like with anything, if I had  convincing reasons or argument in support of it, I’d be inclined to believe it. Obviously I wouldn’t say that something like having periods isn’t due to biology. Climbing I’m not so convinced. I’m not trying to be close-minded, just from your perspective clearly ignorant on some reason that evades me on why women are apparently biologically uninclined to rock climb. I’m more than willing and interested to go through old threads to get a better perspective, thanks for the suggestion. I haven’t used MP all that much for all that long, so I didn’t think about whether or not it’d been talked about before.

There seems to be a healthy and vibrant women's climbing community here in Boulder (go figure). My time in the gym, I usually see roughly 50/50 guy/ladies. I think the youth leagues are slightly more girls than boys.

Maybe it would be beneficial to reach out to some of the leaders of groups that promote women in climbing, and see if they've got  feedback for you on how to promote women in climbing in your area. I do have a guess that part of this is the critical mass of there being so much climbing nearby and climbers, it's a lot easier to get a healthy community together without it falling apart due to normal things (people moving, losing interest, etc).

It may just behoove anyone that wants to develop their own climbing community to poke around and ask questions in a climbing community like Boulder. It attracts climbers (men, and women) for good reasons.

That's an interesting data point about the resident climbers in the Yosemite Valley being overwhelmingly male. I'm curious were the majority of male climbers you encountered also working summer service jobs or were they dirtbagging? Were the male hotel/restaurant workers climbers?

I don't get to Yosemite very often but where I climb outdoors (J-tree, Tahquitz, Eastern Sierra, local LA crags) I see a lot of women. Some places, like Malibu Creek, I'd put the numbers at close to 50%-50% on a weekend. I was on Mt. Whitney earlier this summer and saw a ton of women up there. So I'm encouraged by the level of female participation in this sport. 

Lisa S wrote:

I don’t buy it because I don’t have any good reasons to think it is. Like with anything, if I had  convincing reasons or argument in support of it, I’d be inclined to believe it. Obviously I wouldn’t say that something like having periods isn’t due to biology. Climbing I’m not so convinced. I’m not trying to be close-minded, just from your perspective clearly ignorant on some reason that evades me on why women are apparently biologically uninclined to rock climb. I’m more than willing and interested to go through old threads to get a better perspective, thanks for the suggestion. I haven’t used MP all that much for all that long, so I didn’t think about whether or not it’d been talked about before.

well your definition of "biologic barriers" might need some expanding.    women are biologically inclined not to climb because evolutionarily, as a whole species... if women were more reckless and more inclined to throw themselves up and off cliffs.... the species as a whole would suffer.

men traditionally are more reckless, more willing to throw everything away in the pursuit of conquest...

if you think basic biologic differences "don't matter" or "can always be overcome by egalitarianism".... try buying any womens rock shoe in a sz 46 ;)

at my local gym the gender split is pretty close to 50/50 (staff and clients) and the Teen Climbing Team has just as many girl crushers as boys..

food for thought:  one of the comments I overhear fairly often from female climbers is a kind of scoffing at "oh that's just cause he's so tall".. but I don't go starting threads about that issue ;)  even though easily half of our routes are crampy shit that is so much easier for petite frames..