Are lockers acceptable for tying in for multipitch?

Swapping leads between 1, 2, or 3 without untying, or using a locker and/or unclipping is easy.

Untying from the first or second rope for the middle climber in the group, never happens. Who is leading the next pitch on what rope happens at the anchor.

If the middle climber leads he can climb on one line and trail the second easily if the ropes are different colors, or lead on both with an atc if they aren't.

If all parties are at the belay so are all rope ends, anyone in the group can lead the next pitch without untying.

Y'all need to build an anchor on the ground, at the start of a climb and figure it out before somebody gets killed.

My .02

When rope solo i am using two lockers.  Either on my silent partner or with hitches.  I see no problem with it.  We clip to our harness in industrial rescue ops.  Potential loads are way higher too.  Of course we use a steel biner rated to 40 kn.  However, some companies like camp and omega make aluminum biners rated to 40 kn.. Just verify it is locked.  

John Barritt wrote: Swapping leads between 1, 2, or 3 without untying, or using a locker and/or unclipping is easy.

Untying from the first or second rope for the middle climber in the group, never happens. Who is leading the next pitch on what rope happens at the anchor.

If the middle climber leads he can climb on one line and trail the second easily if the ropes are different colors, or lead on both with an atc if they aren't.

If all parties are at the belay so are all rope ends, anyone in the group can lead the next pitch without untying.

Y'all need to build an anchor on the ground, at the start of a climb and figure it out before somebody gets killed.

My .02

You are referring to a different scenario then the one I posted about, namely a rope of three with the climbers arranged and climbing sequentially.  Many people have given up on this because of the faster option we were discussing. If the team is using the method in which a single leader trails two ropes and both seconds follow simultaneously, there is no "middle" climber, and  if one wants to use this configuration for every pitch and also swap who is leading then some untying an tying is necessary.

The sequence I mentioned, by the way, is arranged so that the party does not have to re-pile or restack their ropes, which can be a source of delays.

 I'd be concerned about screw gates becoming unscrewed; falling followers loading biners on edges; crossloading. A strong, experienced climber would prefer tying in.

Paul Hutton wrote:  I'd be concerned about screw gates becoming unscrewed; falling followers loading biners on edges; crossloading. A strong, experienced climber would prefer tying in.

Using two lockers with the gates reversed ought to mitigate concerns about the gates unscrewing; the system is effective with both gates unlocked.  Moreover, one could also employ biners with locking autolocking collars and eliminate the unscrewing issue entirely.  Using belay-device biners with a separate subgate eliminates crossloading.  Loading the biners on an edge is a rather remote but not impossible outcome---I think having two biners gives adequate protection against consequences of this, but maybe that's overly optimistic.

But don't get me wrong, I've tried biners and prefer tying and untying, which does, however, put increased emphasis on attention to detail for the whole party.  I do know people who should never put themselves in this situation...

Alan Rader wrote: Please don't bash as I'm learning.  I have done a few multipitch with a group of 3.  Rope management is still a struggle and work in progress.  Recently read that untying and tying is acceptable.

So far we tie in at the bottom and never untie until finished.  Middle person to start always has two ropes on.  Danger in that is clipping the wrong rope when leading.  

I can't find anything about using a locker on the ends of the ropes with figure 8s and swapping that way.  

If you always do partner checks, I don't see why it couldn't be done this way.  You are checking for say a proper 8 through 2 or making sure a locker is through 2 and locked on your harness  

Please provide pros/cons on this or why it would not be recommended or acceptable.  

Thanks

Alan, dont mess with success. Keep it simple and straight forward for the entire group, stay tied in. When people of your apprant skill level start mixing things in bad shit can happen, mistakes are made, etc.

If you want to improve your system assess the pro/cons yourself. No one on here knows the nuances of your climbing or your group. Its ok to use people's opinions on MP to generate ideas but noones opinion is gospel.

Personally, for a group of three I lead with two ropes on and belay both followers at the same time. No untying needed.

I've done what you are doing many times. Usually we maintain our positions (leader always leads), so the only problem we have is feeding rope off the bottom of the pile. We re-flake before the leader heads out again. You didn't mention this, but are you using different colored ropes? If they are the same, you'll have a spaghetti nightmare. I have no problem untying on a ledge and don't like figure 8s on lockers as my tie-in. They are another thing to fail, but dropping a rope or not tying in are more certain failures. Technically no one is ever untied if you do it right. Clove in, daisy chain in, PAS in, or whatever. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is tied in before climbing. There are 3 of you on the ledge. If everyone checks everyone before next pitch, you'll be fine.

I thought about that, but didn't feel right even encouraging this method in any fashion. I'd feel REAL comfortable "tying in" with two autolockers and a super 8 lol. BOMBER

Alan Rader wrote: Please don't bash as I'm learning.  I have done a few multipitch with a group of 3.  Rope management is still a struggle and work in progress.  Recently read that untying and tying is acceptable.

Just to address the aspect of your post that I bolded. You're posting this in the Bigwlls and Aid forum but your language makes it look like you're talking about multipitch freeclimbing.
As you're still learning, let me make a distinction for you in terms of a climbers connections to anchors and rope between bigwall and freeclimbing:

• Bigwall & Aid Climbing - Normally each climber will have at least two daisies that they can connect to an anchor in addition to their rope connection. Because of these multiple additional connections, untying and tying are generally fine because the climber is on multiple other connection points to the anchor.
• Multipitch Freeclimbing - The assumed connections for the climbers in addition to the rope to an anchor will be all over the place. Some will have a PAS, Some will have a basket-knot of a 48"webbing, some will use a quickdraw or two, some will use a single 24" sling, some will have some other system that works for them. Because these additional connections beyond the rope can be different from climber to climber on a multipitch freeclimb, you do not want to overapply the statement that untying and tying are acceptable unless there are additional safety systems in place for that specific multipitch situation you find yourself in.

There are reasons that climbers have historically tied in with a knot and not clipped in with a locker. It is safer.  By clipping in with a carabiner you are adding a link to the system that can fail.  This could be in the form of cross loading the carabiner (quite likely in a lead fall) remember that even a locked carabiner will fail at a significantly lower load when cross loaded and there is no good way to prevent this in a leader fall. It is also possible to damage the rope on the locking mechanism as the rope moves around the carabiner during a fall.  If you are ever thinking of sacrificing safety for convienence you should check yourself.  The original poster suggested this method because their rope management is still evolving.  Why not just learn better rope management?  Personally I would never lead with my rope clipped into a carabiner.  

If you want to make a genuinely informed decision, don't confuse matters with problems that can be eliminated.  I'm not advocating for lockers, but I've already posted about how to eliminate these concerns, with the exception of the locking collar damaging the rope---has anything like this ever happened?

Folks who rope-solo have clipped their Silent Partner to the harness with two lockers (or just two regular carabiners) for years.

I'm curious where the original poster is climbing that it's important that all 3 climbers swap leads? If you're doing a bunch of 2 or 3 pitch trad climbs it seems easier just to have 1 or 2 climbers do the leading in blocks and then switch out for the next climb. 

Thanks everyone for your ideas/opinions.  We did use lockers on one climb and it worked out.  Not saying this is a solution for all or all the time.  I will try some of the other recommendations on here too.  Always researching and learning.

suggestion for leaders climbing with two followers to avoid Clipping the wrong, the rope your NOT be belayed on and I’ll point out this is for free climb multi more . But since were already off route on an old post..

1-Use an actual tag line even if it only 6ft long if it allows you to more easily identify the rope your being belayed on use it . Use your anchor cordelette . Different size and color. Boom! Less to carry
2- just came up with this on the fly. Assuming hopefully both your followers are tied in to your harness “climb ready” , The rope that’s NOT going to your belay... take a foot of slack backwards between your legs and clove hitch it to your haul loop on your harness so when you go to clip make no mistake there’s only one rope when you reach your hand down and you still keep the 2nd rope tied in on your figure8. 

Alan Rader wrote:

An article from climbing.com says to help with rope management a group could untie and tie when trading off leaders.  So we are just wondering if using auto lockers tied in with figure 8s would be acceptable and if not why?

Thanks

I say no. The carabiners are just one more thing in the chain of events to mess with. Keep it simple(er).