stopper only climbing

Helen,

In a fall from above (say, a lead fall), gear is subjected not just to the obvious downward force but outward as well (and upward, if not properly extended) as you fall past it.  Assuming that you were placing for practice and not just to aid yourself up, you’ll want to take this into consideration.  Did you try yanking that hex when you were level with it?  Sometimes, a good constriction can bite in and somewhat resist outward pull, but that hex looks like it could pull straight out, even if it would be great when it’s above you.  Similarly, that cam will get tugged up when you move past it, causing it to rotate, which can lead to it walking.  Assuming you plan on climbing past something (sort of the idea in climbing), think OUT and DOWN.

Thanks, all!

This crack is short, fairly easy, and not vertical. With you good folks bringing it up earlier, I made a real effort to angle every piece. Here are a few more pics. Gear pics were taken while rapping down and cleaning.

Top view, shows some of the pieces, how the crack goes wide, and that it also is less than vertical. 4 or 5 pieces in this short little bit.

This first placement was only about five feet up. And yes, I was off the ground when I placed it:

Another nut:

And another hex:

All of these were yanked around, weighted, wiggled, and, the top ones became foot holds. Because I wanted to see what I was doing, and because I knew I would be doing the above, all were placed below face height, so I wouldn't get whacked.

Again, thanks for the input. I do listen, even if it doesn't always seem like it!

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote: Thanks, all!

This crack is short, fairly easy, and not vertical. With you good folks bringing it up earlier, I made a real effort to angle every piece. Here are a few more pics. Gear pics were taken while rapping down and cleaning.

Top view, shows some of the pieces, how the crack goes wide, and that it also is less than vertical. 4 or 5 pieces in this short little bit.

This first placement was only about five feet up. And yes, I was off the ground when I placed it:

Another nut:

And another hex:

All of these were yanked around, weighted, wiggled, and, the top ones became foot holds. Because I wanted to see what I was doing, and because I knew I would be doing the above, all were placed below face height, so I wouldn't get whacked.

Again, thanks for the input. I do listen, even if it doesn't always seem like it!

Best, Helen

Helen,

Not sure if you’re actually leading out on this gear or just practicing placements while on TR solo.  (Too lazy to dig back up thread right now).  Anyway, if leading, please note that your first piece needs to be equalized for more outward pull, lest all your gear zippers, especially if your belayer is out from the wall - think about how the rope would come taut during a fall and the force imparted on the bottom piece.  Once that pops, the one above it is next to go...
For this reason, many folks try to start out with a cam, as it tends to be more multidirectional, as a first piece, although you need to consider walking as well with a cam.  A cam set for a more outward direction can work wonders.  In the pre-cam days, another tactic was opposed nuts to essentially lock against each other and protect against outward forces, as well as downward forces, without walking.
Cheers,Hamish

Hamish Malin wrote:

Helen,

Not sure if you’re actually leading out on this gear or just practicing placements while on TR solo.  (Too lazy to dig back up thread right now).  Anyway, if leading, please note that your first piece needs to be equalized for more outward pull, lest all your gear zippers, especially if your belayer is out from the wall - think about how the rope would come taut during a fall and the force imparted on the bottom piece.  Once that pops, the one above it is next to go...
For this reason, many folks try to start out with a cam, as it tends to be more multidirectional, as a first piece, although you need to consider walking as well with a cam.  A cam set for a more outward direction can work wonders.  In the pre-cam days, another tactic was opposed nuts to essentially lock against each other and protect against outward forces, as well as downward forces, without walking.
Cheers,Hamish

Hamish, this was from my first go at top rppe solo, and, first go at placing gear (other than a bit just standing on the ground).

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114982188/going-it-alone-first-toprope-solo-plus-gear

Thanks for reminding me to be mindful of the first piece. Opposed nuts are on my to do list, as is placing a piece for primarily an upward ​pull, for the rare time I might decide to anchor myself as a light belayer.

Best, Helen

Getting a multi-directional first piece can be critical; I'm sorry to say I know of people who died because they didn't do this.  But every piece doesn't have to be multi-directional. If the wall is vertical or less than vertical and the belayer can position themselves directly under the first piece, then it isn't going to lift.

The best situation, of course not always available, is to get the first piece in a good horizontal placement.  If only vertical placements are available, and if the geometry of the situation indicates lifting will happen, then by far the best approach is to get an opposed upward-directional piece.  I am very suspicious of the (pervasive) claims that a cam will rotate upwards and still hold.  It is certainly true some of the time, but I don't think there is any effective way to predict whether a cam will work this way or not.  You are rolling the dice with this strategy, which is fine as long as you realize that.  If the non-lifting of the first piece is truly mission-critical, you only trust that job to a single cam if it is impossible to rig an upward directional.

rgold wrote:  I am very suspicious of the (pervasive) claims that a cam will rotate upwards and still hold.

As am I. Once you put a cam in motion you're gambling that it will stop moving and regrip. As rgold says, it will a lot of the time even most of the time, but if you're talking about betting your life on it, then you should probably re-evaluate what you're doing and why.

Considering how often we’ve been hearing this in gear-pulling accident reports:

“Looked to be a bomber/textbook cam placement...”

I think you guys are on to something.  It’s quite probable that some of those placements WERE bomber initially, but that upward tugging walked them somewhere bad by the time the fall actually occurred.

You need the right crag if you go passive only. Eldo before Lumpy, Devils Lake before RRG. Gunks before North Conway. Seneca ftw. Stay out of the creek.

Regardless, learning on stoppers teaches more than learning on cams. Why? Because its unforgiving.
Good nut > good cam
mediocre nut << mediocre cam.
Also because learning to place nuts translates to cams, but not the other way around.

Regarding Hexes: don't buy them except for protecting snowy/icy cracks (i.e. mixed climbing). If you disregard this, buy the wild country hexes and try toprope aid climbing to learning how they work as active pro.

Bogdan P wrote: You need the right crag if you go passive only. Eldo before Lumpy, Devils Lake before RRG. Gunks before North Conway. Seneca ftw. Stay out of the creek.

Regardless, learning on stoppers teaches more than learning on cams. Why? Because its unforgiving.
Good nut > good cam
mediocre nut << mediocre cam.
Also because learning to place nuts translates to cams, but not the other way around.

Regarding Hexes: don't buy them except for protecting snowy/icy cracks (i.e. mixed climbing). If you disregard this, buy the wild country hexes and try toprope aid climbing to learning how they work as active pro.

Loved your post until the end. Never have understood the hate for hexes, aside from the noise. On any route where I don't already know the pro, I carry cams, nuts, tricams, and my Torque Nuts. I usually place at least two of the Torque Nuts, and when I get a solid sideways placement, it is about the most ridiculously bomber placement imaginable.

So I think we need another thread about hexes. ;-)

Well, a follow-up question, then, on that first multidirectional piece? Rich mentioned a horizontal crack placement for that piece. Would a tricam be a consideration, or are they hard to place one handed? I rather stupidly forgot to be looking at the horizontals, I was focused on the crack I was climbing.

And, regarding hexes? I may be stupid, but the ones I placed were super easy and fast. I'm not seeing the advantage of putting cams there, when the crack flared all over the place. Plus, I don't have anything as big as the big hex anyway, lol! It seemed super bomber to me. If it wasn't, I'd sure like to.know why.

May get out again on the rope solo this weekend. I'll work on that multidirectional first piece. Maybe see if I can figure out opposing pieces.

Best, Helen

Bogdan P wrote: Regardless, learning on stoppers teaches more than learning on cams. Why? Because its unforgiving.
Good nut > good cam
mediocre nut << mediocre cam.
Also because learning to place nuts translates to cams, but not the other way around.

The reason for that is that nuts are more of a 0|1 binary deal, they're either good or bad, as opposed to cams which have more 0...1 spectrum. And you are correct, nuts have a lot to teach about cam placements versus little about cams inform what constitutes a good passive placement.

An important part of the equation and experience is also that as you learn you are wiring up what your eyes/mind sees as constituting a 'good' placement. If you develop a heavy cam-first priority when evaluating placements when under stress you will end up missing out on a lot of subtle but otherwise bomb placement simply because they don't fit your now spring-driven criteria for good placements.

Another aspect of becoming adroit with passive pro is it teaches craft and craft in trad climbing has serious value when you move up in grades and on first ascents. And it's not a "that's nice...", optional, esoteric, or abstract deal - you are literally 'crafting' your protection system and your life depends upon your level of craftsmanship. Cams have allowed a significant movement away from craft to more of 'good enough and go' mentality which you and most folks can get away with most of the time until you can't and until 'good enough' isn't. Again, that lack of craft isn't a big deal on whatever constitutes moderate ground for you, but quickly becomes one at your limit or on more difficult-to-protect terrain.

Regarding Hexes: don't buy them except for protecting snowy/icy cracks (i.e. mixed climbing). If you disregard this, buy the wild country hexes and try toprope aid climbing to learning how they work as active pro.

As for hexes, it's not so much a matter of hex hate, but more just a matter of recognizing they are the main piece of passive gear displaced by cams. I started out climbing on a set of stoppers and one of hexs and was exceptionally good at stacking them in creative ways which would seem improbable if not unfathomable these days (but most of those were actually bomb stacks). That said, I haven't carried a hex since around '91 and even then it was typically only a particular hex for a particular placement I knew about before leaving the ground. But having gotten good with hexs still heavily informs and influences my use of cams today in that I don't slam and go - I study cam placements for what's optimal and I still pay particular attention to how they are slung relative to the overall protection system that's under construction as I'm leading.

Robert Michael wrote:

Loved your post until the end. Never have understood the hate for hexes, aside from the noise. On any route where I don't already know the pro, I carry cams, nuts, tricams, and my Torque Nuts. I usually place at least two of the Torque Nuts, and when I get a solid sideways placement, it is about the most ridiculously bomber placement imaginable.

So I think we need another thread about hexes. ;-)

Nothing against hexes. They're just obsolete on dry rock routes. Cams are faster, easier to place one handed, and cover the same placements as hexes while also having more placement options than any hex due to their continuously adjustable sizes. I learned on hexes. Now they just sit in the closet unless I'm mixed climbing. 

Old lady H wrote: Well, a follow-up question, then, on that first multidirectional piece? Rich mentioned a horizontal crack placement for that piece. Would a tricam be a consideration, or are they hard to place one handed? I rather stupidly forgot to be looking at the horizontals, I was focused on the crack I was climbing.

And, regarding hexes? I may be stupid, but the ones I placed were super easy and fast. I'm not seeing the advantage of putting cams there, when the crack flared all over the place. Plus, I don't have anything as big as the big hex anyway, lol! It seemed super bomber to me. If it wasn't, I'd sure like to.know why.

May get out again on the rope solo this weekend. I'll work on that multidirectional first piece. Maybe see if I can figure out opposing pieces.

Best, Helen

Tricams in a horizontal are very good up and down and can be placed one-handed, but require a bit of practice (easier than they’re often given credit).  They can be vulnerable with a sideways force, so be careful with traverses.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Tricams in a horizontal are very good up and down and can be placed one-handed, but require a bit of practice (easier than they’re often given credit).  They can be vulnerable with a sideways force, so be careful with traverses.

Thanks, Ted! Dunno how it happened, but this guy followed me home one day....all I got. But, enough to play with and figure out.

For me? It's quite possible that a piece placed low, for an upward pull, might simply be my anchor, if I have a tank to belay and we decide that's the best option. I also want to.be able to follow and clean, even if I never end up being a trad lead. In addition, we have a local area where you have to build your own anchor, or do without. Hardly ever see anyone on ropes there!

Best, Helen

Ted Pinson wrote:

Tricams in a horizontal are very good up and down and can be placed one-handed, but require a bit of practice (easier than they’re often given credit).  They can be vulnerable with a sideways force, so be careful with traverses.

The new tricams are alot easier to place 1 handed with the stiff webbing. The older ones are near impossible to set 1 handed but if you want get some cardboard and tape the sling on them so it is stiff like the newer version and it works to make an easy 1 handed placement.

The stiffer sling is a trade-off in my opinion.  It makes one-handed vertical placements easier, but doesn't facilitate horizontal placements, and the extra sling stiffness makes horizontal placements a little less reliable if the rope runs off to the side of the placement.

^^^Well, I'll try to see first hand this weekend! Mill around and see if I can find placements. I expect I'll find oodles, but we'll see, eh?

Best, Helen

(Full disclosure: only read page one of posts) I hope tricams made an appearance somewhere in this thread as great addition to cam-free leading!

Haven't carried Tricams since the 90's, but if I lived somewhere with more pockets or horizontals then I'd probably still carry a couple.

I went back to carrying a small number of tricams to use as gear anchors so I can lead with as many doubles in cams as poss.. but then I do live in an area with a lot of horizontals (and I do usually like to have at least 1 cam in my anchor as they do seem a bit more multidirectional)