Guide mode: hand on brake strand at all times?

reboot wrote:

I mean, it's not like most people with a Grigri strictly adhere to the Petzl instructions (which hasn't stayed constant since its release).

+1

Seriously.

But, I do like fatty ropes for that extra margin for activating the device. You do have to be far more responsible for good belay technique with skinny ropes or a worn device. Just sayin'.

when using your atc guide-mode, do you distinguish which part of the locker you have the rope wrapping around? i got in the habit of clipping the rope into the basket, but have seen others use the spine of the locker. any difference?

Floyd "PC" Eggers wrote:

The irony is, the grigri was made for people that can't follow direction. 

This is a good point. Design something to be "idiot-proof" and you've just defined your market in a troubling fashion.

David Kerkeslager wrote: When belaying up the follower in guide mode, I was taught to keep a hand on the brake strand at all times. But on the Awesome Trad Movies thread I noticed someone in one of the clips taking their hand off the brake strand, and others seemed to think this was normal, especially when bringing up two followers.

The youtube video you're referencing doesn't show the brake hand being taken off the strand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgjoFv33kKk&feature=youtu.be&t=4m40s

It's shows the common technique of sliding the brake hand along the brake strand when using a guide-mode belay.  Ok in my book, but I will go make some popcorn now.....

edit to add: technique in question shown 5 seconds after video starts

Danny wrote: when using your atc guide-mode, do you distinguish which part of the locker you have the rope wrapping around? i got in the habit of clipping the rope into the basket, but have seen others use the spine of the locker. any difference?

The only concern would be a change in the friction provided by the biner due variances in size and shape between basket and spine. The strength should be adequate.

In David K's pasted diagrams from Petzl and BD both basket and spine are used. Guess they don't distinguish. 

Danny wrote: when using your atc guide-mode, do you distinguish which part of the locker you have the rope wrapping around? i got in the habit of clipping the rope into the basket, but have seen others use the spine of the locker. any difference?

Just make sure the section of the carabiner you're using is round stock, as opposed to H or I- shaped. The rope will pull easier over a round cross-section.

Related ATC guide mode issue that surprised me when I found out about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=385cP_FYNEs

If I'm hungry or need to pee etc. I just over-cam a piece or weld a nut or two in while I'm leading the pitch. If I really want some time to kill I just place a tricam-then I have plenty of time to eat, piss, etc. while they fiddle with it

Ted Pinson wrote: Here’s my question: if the answer is “no” and the device fails, how likely are you to be able to hold your second’s weight without a redirect/munter rigged for lowering?

I've been thinking the same thing. Possible conclusion: Checking the setup for possible snagging etc. could be far more important than keeping a hand on the brake strand, right?

On the other hand, maybe you can you counter a guide mode failure by moving the brake hand up above the device?

Ted Pinson wrote: Here’s my question: if the answer is “no” and the device fails, how likely are you to be able to hold your second’s weight without a redirect/munter rigged for lowering?

That's really hard to say without knowing how the device failed and how much friction it provides when it failed. I'm wondering if there are any guide mode failures in ANAM that could shed some light on this. I'll take a look. :)

EDIT: Editing my post because I've hit my post limit. It seems that of these, all three accidents that were explicitly guide mode belays occurred during lowering, which isn't really what this thread is about.

I will say that in two cases, grabbing the brake strand after the fall started didn't help: "I grabbed the brake side of the rope, but that didn’t help. I just got burns on my hand...." and "Realizing that I was falling, Sean attempted to brake but couldn’t hold my weight due to the increasing momentum." I don't think we can conclude that a hand on the brake strand before the fall started would or wouldn't have helped.

The one thing is that none of these were failures to catch a fall while climbing: all were during lowering. So we can conclude that the belay device failing to catch does seem to be unusual.

LOL comment got deleted. How weak is this place?

Hand stays on the brake 90% of the time. 

depends on how much you climb and how big you climb. The bigger and more commiting the route the more likely that tasks requiring 2 hands will need to be done.  If its going to take more than a few seconds I will tie the rope off. if it is just putting on a jacket, sorting ropes, takeing photos etc  no sweat. Noobs on the other hand must follow the directions in the original packageing exactly and to the letter!

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote: LOL comment got deleted. How weak is this place?

Hand stays on the brake 90% of the time. 

wow...fucking unreal....#sad

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote: LOL comment got deleted. How weak is this place?

Hand stays on the brake 90% of the time.

Chuffers need to listen to people like Greg. Nothing is going to be 100% all the time, that's just part of life and it's part of climbing. If you need it to be 100% you're not going to get anywhere, you would just be stuck talking about it. The likelihood of guide mode failing is extremely small and even if it did it was probably because you used ropes that were too skinny for the device
But seriously if you're thinking about these stupid little nuances all the time you're missing the bigger picture which is much more important.

Bob Johnson wrote:

The AMGA no longer considers the guide plate a hands-free device. I'm not sure when they changed their minds, but that's what they are teaching now in their Rock Guide Course. There is a failure mode with the guide plate. With the rope weighted, it is possible for the top strand to slip past the bottom strand, thus reversing their positions (top strand is now on bottom). Then, if the blocking biner rotates it will no longer autolock. This is more probable with skinny ropes and using a device like the Kong Gigi that has wider slots and also no keeper loop. The keeper loop with the ATC guide helps to prevent the blocking biner from rotating. So the failure mode seems quite improbable, but it's something to be aware of. If you have to take your hand off the brake strand, it is recommended to tie a quick overhand on the brake strand.

That theoretical failure mode (has there been a documented accident?) can be avoided by orienting the carabiner as shown in the video linked above by Shawn Adrian. 

I personally have no problem with my leader letting go of the brake strand on a guide plate. About as likely to fail as the rope in my mind.

climbing friend,

guide mode it is hands free! how else may you be smoking on your spliff and eating your vegan fish-heads as you second they struggles and flails? It is true the AMGA teaches it is hands-free in guide mode.

Shawn Adrian wrote: Related ATC guide mode issue that surprised me when I found out about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=385cP_FYNEs

Can you send me back those 4 minutes of my life. First of all, the guy in the video lifted the brake strand past the climber strand with virtually no weight on the climber strand. Hello? Secondly, he lifted the brake stand which you would never do unless you are trying to kill your partner.  Maybe that should have been first.  It would negate the other issue. 

Reminds me of the classic doctor visit:
Patient: “It hurts when I do this.”
Doctor: “Don’t do that.”

David Kerkeslager wrote:

That's really hard to say without knowing how the device failed and how much friction it provides when it failed. I'm wondering if there are any guide mode failures in ANAM that could shed some light on this. I'll take a look. :)

EDIT: Editing my post because I've hit my post limit. It seems that of these, all three accidents that were explicitly guide mode belays occurred during lowering, which isn't really what this thread is about.

I will say that in two cases, grabbing the brake strand after the fall started didn't help: "I grabbed the brake side of the rope, but that didn’t help. I just got burns on my hand...." and "Realizing that I was falling, Sean attempted to brake but couldn’t hold my weight due to the increasing momentum." I don't think we can conclude that a hand on the brake strand before the fall started would or wouldn't have helped.

The one thing is that none of these were failures to catch a fall while climbing: all were during lowering. So we can conclude that the belay device failing to catch does seem to be unusual.

That’s what I was picturing as well, but Scott brought up some interesting possible scenarios.  In my experience, though, most devices in Guide-Mode are on/off, which is particularly what causes those sorts of accidents.  It’s not a gradual release that you can usually control with your hand.