Pointing-and-Calling: A method to promote safe climbing?

Mobes Mobesely wrote: My check system=don't die today, over and over. Rinse. Repeat.

Not a good system. I go for don't get unhealable injuries, because I would much rather die from a fall than lose my sight, lose my legs, or an arm, etc.

ViperScale . wrote:

Not a good system. I go for don't get unhealable injuries, because I would much rather die from a fall than loose my sight, loose my legs, or an arm, etc.

You think way too much. 

On another note I'd rather live blind or without an arm or a leg or all of the above than be dead. Guess my life ain't that bad?

Dallas R and rgold both make great points. Checklists have proven useful in airline safety and operating rooms, but they must be used with additional knowledge, situational awareness and mindfulness to be safe. They may seem rote but they should not be used in simply a rote way. They are helpful for beginners and for experienced climbers alike but no substitute for training and awareness.

I have two simple and mnemonic checklists for the transitions that cause the most preventable accidents.  If anyone can find anything missing that should be in here by all means please point it out.  Again, these are not to be used in rote fashion and I know there are situations in which you might choose to modify a step. That is where mindfulness comes in.

Here is my mnemonic checklist for starting a climb: Don’t Kill Lynn Hill Knucklehead (the evocation of Lynn Hill makes a memorable rhyme but is also a reminder that one of the best climbers ever had a bad accident that proper use of this mnemonic would have prevented).

Andy Bennett wrote:  but they must be used with additional knowledge, situational awareness and mindfulness to be safe. They may seem rote but they should not be used in simply a rote way. They are helpful for beginners and for experienced climbers alike but no substitute for training and awareness.
If you like this or hate it, if you have a suggestion to improve it, or if you have a better system of your own, please weigh in. If you adopt these mnemonics please do so mindfully and always remember they are not a substitute for training someone.

Well said Andy, I like it.  I am a counter, so I use a numbered system, you can make fun of this if you wish, but it works for me. 

2, 4, 6, 8, who do you appreciate, belayer, belayer

2 is rope through 2 loops on belt
4,6,8 the strands on a properly tied figure 8 knot
who do you appreciate, at least a hand widths of tag and or a stopper not
belayer, locker on belay loop
belayer, belaying device properly set

on rap, 1-2-3-4 tug tug
1 -  rope through one chain link or ring
2  - rope through other chain link or ring
3 -  first strand of rope properly set in atc
4  - second strand of rope properly set in atc
tug, tug the autoblock tug the rappel system

A tragic accident in the Tetons illustrates the need for some kind of system.   jhnewsandguide.com/news/cop… .  

I said earlier that this was one of the more common and insidious rappel rigging errors, and now, sadly, it has claimed another victim.  The solution I suggested---which is to always be tethered in to the anchor in a way that allows you to fully weight the rappel set up while still protected by the tether---neutralizes the consequences of this error, as well as averting many other mistakes that would result in the rappel device either releasing the rope or coming free of the harness.  

We don't know if Dees had some kind of autoblock backup.  If he did, it didn't work.  My guess is that in that situation it would be unlikely to be effective, although there is a chance it might grab if the rappeller let go of it quickly enough---an action that I think would be almost impossible to take.

The combination of an autoblock backup and knots in the ends of the rope probably would have stopped him, but only after falling half the length of the rappel, with whatever injuries that might entail.

Whether you opt for a checklist or not, I think the backed-up tether test is essential.  I know quite a few people who have, at one time, made exactly this threading error and have been saved either because they noticed it in time, or because their initial stance was not critically dependent on the support of the rappel lines, or because they had a tether allowing them to safely test the rap device integrity.

RIP Marco.

rgold wrote: The solution I suggested---which is to always be tethered in to the anchor in a way that allows you to fully weight the rappel set up while still protected by the tether---neutralizes the consequences of this error, as well as averting many other mistakes that would result in the rappel device either releasing the rope or coming free of the harness.  

I'm curious if you have a specific system you use for this. I've got a system that has me backed up on two points the whole time and I've got it fairly dialed, but I'm curious what other folks are doing.

We had our first fatal accident at Beacon Rock exactly this way about six years ago. It was a young local firefighter and he unfortunately was taking someone on their first ever climb and they ended up stranded at the anchor until another party came along and brought them down.

Leash, rig, check, weight test, unleash, rap - always.

rgold wrote:  I know quite a few people who have, at one time, made exactly this threading error and have been saved either because they noticed it in time, 

That indeed is tragic.  

You can count me in this category.  When I double checked my rap rig and found one rope strand not clipped it scared me.  It has been a critical double check every since. 

Here's a question I have been contemplating but have not test out.  I climb frequently with climbers that may not be very experienced. If I rap first, then when they rap I just happen to have a hold on the two strands when they begin their rap, if they missed one strand, would it be possible to keep the rope from whipping out of my hand and would it be possible to perform a fireman's belay?

Dallas R wrote: Here's a question I have been contemplating but have not test out.  I climb frequently with climbers that may not be very experienced. If I rap first, then when they rap I just happen to have a hold on the two strands when they begin their rap, if they missed one strand, would it be possible to keep the rope from whipping out of my hand and would it be possible to perform a fireman's belay?

I doubt this would work. This is basically like trying to hold someone falling on a top rope without a belay device. If you could manage it at all, you'd need everything you had to hold them up--adding a fireman's belay on the other strand seems pretty out of the question.

A better solution is to rig their rappel before you rap so you know it's rigged correctly.

Even if I'm climbing with a climber who has some experiende and might have an ego about me wanting to check their rappel, I'll try to have everyone set up their rappels and check each other., similar to the belay check. I like having people check me, too.

Clove hitch both strands to the next anchor (left about 4' of slack). Although this method have some limitations:
* Typically there is no anchor at the ground.
* If the next anchor is omnidirectional rappel anchor (e.g. a slinged horn) the outcome will be catastrophic.

Another solution is to pre set up your second's rappel before start rappelling.

Anyway there is a must check. One should transfer theirs weight to rappel device and check it really holds before unclip from rappel anchor. Still no guarantees.

Dallas R wrote:

That indeed is tragic.  

You can count me in this category.  When I double checked my rap rig and found one rope strand not clipped it scared me.  It has been a critical double check every since. 

Here's a question I have been contemplating but have not test out.  I climb frequently with climbers that may not be very experienced. If I rap first, then when they rap I just happen to have a hold on the two strands when they begin their rap, if they missed one strand, would it be possible to keep the rope from whipping out of my hand and would it be possible to perform a fireman's belay?

 

The most straightforward approach if you have any doubts about them (or yourself--maybe at the end of a long day??) would be to have them rig and test at the same time you do. They would be on the rope in series (anchor-->person1-->person2-->you-->cliff). That way all eyes are on the rigging and procedure, and they can't muck it up since they'll be locked in by your weighting of the rope.

My guess about your question, however, would be: once they start falling, probably not.

Thanks for the feedback.  I figured it was a pretty sketchy situation, glad I never tried to test my theory.

The way I do a "fireman's belay," I think there is a chance I could hold or at least substantially slow a climber who hasn't clipped one of the two loops in their device.  When I get to the bottom of the rappel, I leave the rappel ropes in my device (with a bit of slack of course).  If I have to weight the ropes for a fireman's belay, I jump and take in the slack.  I started doing it this way after reading some tests that cast doubts on the ability of a fireman's belayer to stop a falling rappeller by just pulling on the ropes with their hands.  

Using this method does not change the necessity of taking the precautions mentioned above for an inexperienced second, precautions that involve testing the integrity of their rap set-up before they weight it.

rgold wrote: The way I do a "fireman's belay," I think there is a chance I could hold or at least substantially slow a climber who hasn't clipped one of the two loops in their device.  When I get to the bottom of the rappel, I leave the rappel ropes in my device (with a bit of slack of course).  If I have to weight the ropes for a fireman's belay, I jump and take in the slack.  I started doing it this way after reading some tests that cast doubts on the ability of a fireman's belayer to stop a falling rappeller by just pulling on the ropes with their hands.  

Using this method does not change the necessity of taking the precautions mentioned above for an inexperienced second, precautions that involve testing the integrity of their rap set-up before they weight it.

I like that and will add it to my toolkit.

So sorry to hear about Dees fatal accident.  My condolences to his family and friends.

Forgive me if this has been pointed out (sorry, pun), but I don't see 'pointing and calling' as a checklist. Or maybe there are 'checklist' elements to it, but I see it primarily as a way to force attention to, in this case, the rigging chain. It forces actions to remain conscious and explicit. It also slowly down the process, which in this case is a good thing. I suppose checklists/acronyms do that to some extent as well (e.g., serene).  But the physical/verbal elements of PnC seem to be a different thing.

Not expressing myself as well as I did in my head ( I hate when that happens).

Andrew Hess wrote: Forgive me if this has been pointed out (sorry, pun), but I don't see 'pointing and calling' as a checklist. Or maybe there are 'checklist' elements to it, but I see it primarily as a way to force attention to, in this case, the rigging chain. It forces actions to remain conscious and explicit. It also slowly down the process, which in this case is a good thing. I suppose checklists/acronyms do that to some extent as well (e.g., serene).  But the physical/verbal elements of PnC seem to be a different thing.

Not expressing myself as well as I did in my head ( I hate when that happens).

Put down the drink...Kidding

I am struggling with getting a new partner up to speed on multi-pitch stuff right now. I am the last person to be training someone: I don't express myself well verbally, I don't like to mess around, and have very little patience for bullshit.

I like climbing, and if I want to do it, I need partners, so sometimes that means I have to be the mentor. My wife doesn't climb anymore, so I got me real live kid wonder that is interested in climbing. Stronger than hell, smart, but prone to lapses in judgement. So one of the mnemonic devices for rap stations would be helpful.

I haven't had a close call rapping yet (touch wood), but I can see if one doesn't have a holistic knowledge of climbing, it may be more dangerous than it appears.

climbing friend,

I too, use it the pointing and calling.

I point at the lesser climber around me, and call out the words explaining how inferior they are.

Aleks Zebastian wrote: climbing friend,

I too, use it the pointing and calling.

I point at the lesser climber around me, and call out the words explaining how inferior they are.

Do you follow up with an Ottoman Slap?

Here is how you train: ​Ottoman Slap​​​

Dallas R wrote:

That indeed is tragic.  

You can count me in this category.  When I double checked my rap rig and found one rope strand not clipped it scared me.  It has been a critical double check every since. 

Here's a question I have been contemplating but have not test out.  I climb frequently with climbers that may not be very experienced. If I rap first, then when they rap I just happen to have a hold on the two strands when they begin their rap, if they missed one strand, would it be possible to keep the rope from whipping out of my hand and would it be possible to perform a fireman's belay?

 

How many people at a time? You can set their device on the line before you rap, then fireman from below if you don't trust them.You can tie the ends of the rope together also if your afraid of clipping just a single strand by mistake.