Virginia Bolting Ethics

wes calkins wrote: I think SNP had a fixed anchor management recommendation plan a few years back that they put out. If the OP would reach out to any of the previously mentioned climbing orginixations they could probably point you to the document that I'm referring to.

To everyone else, realize that the day is coming where people are not going to ask before they put bolts in. Just saying....

Good to know.  I was planning on doing some grid bolting down at Stone Mountain later this year, so that makes me feel much better.  I heard some of those routes are really scary!

Jake Jones wrote:

Fair enough.  I knew that Aaron P. and a few others have been establishing problems like crazy out there, but I didn't know that there was a ton of developing going on (route-wise).  That's probably partially because Interstate et al are so far away.  Va spans quite a long way laterally and it looks like a lot of the development is going on in the very southwest panhandle of the state.  Also, I don't have any aspiration to develop, so that's another reason.  I do have an appreciation for the work that goes into it- especially when it's done really well by folks in the know.

Thanks for the info Nathan.

1. Aaron is putting a lot of problems up (like a shit ton), but there are also bolts going in on multiple crags with new ones on deck for development. I think the best is yet to come. Super excited for the future down here!

Nathan Witt wrote:

1. Aaron is putting a lot of problems up (like a shit ton), but there are also bolts going in on multiple crags with new ones on deck for development. I think the best is yet to come. Super excited for the future down here!

Breaks Interstate Park is legit and has a lot of development left to do (including quite a few that don’t need bolts). 

Mobes Mobesely wrote:

Great falls np  has been trashed all over since time began. The fishermen and the weekend crowd contribute heavily. Of all places in the USA, if I had to live there, bolting would happen. IMHO OF course.

Not to derail this lovely thread about how wonderful it would be to bolt every trad line out there, but I don't get the negativity about Great Falls.  Yes, it's a heavily used recreation spot, but in my 50 years of visiting the park I've never seen any major issues along these lines, especially at the cliffs.  What are y'all seeing that I am missing?

p.s. I agree that if NPS allowed a few bolts at GF, it wouldn't be a bad thing. 

Brian Payst wrote:

Breaks Interstate Park is legit and has a lot of development left to do (including quite a few that don’t need bolts). 

Agreed. Bolts only when necessary.

Nathan Witt wrote:

Agreed. Bolts only when necessary.

Define "necessary".

Kennedy Carey wrote:

 I'm not talking about bolting the top rated, high quality, local classic trad route test pieces. We have some areas that almost exclusively have a high number of extremely sub-par scrappy little trad routes all in the range of 5.3-5.8. In my mind this is a perfect opportunity to pick a select few low trafficked route out of the numerous options at that grade and make it bolt accessible. Simply so there's at least a few options for beginner climbers or climber that don't currently have a full rack. 

I just don't see how throwing a few bolts on the 1-2 star route that hasn't been climbed in 2 years anyway is going to hurt anyone. 

Uhh, no.  This is a horrible idea.  Don't bolt existing lines.

Get in touch with the FA's and see if they'd mind you bolting their routes, OR just toprope them; add some top bolt anchors to reduce impact if they're needed, and then be done with it.

Mobes Mobesely wrote:

Great falls np  has been trashed all over since time began. The fishermen and the weekend crowd contribute heavily. Of all places in the USA, if I had to live there, bolting would happen. IMHO OF course.

I don’t disagree about the source of the trash but the park service doesn’t have common sense on sustainability.  Getting rid of trash cans won’t magically make all the visitors stop leaving trash into the park.

Remember, there were bolts there before way back when someone used to teach aid climbing, but the park service wanted them chopped.  The park sees enough visitors that they can live without climbers.

Props for spelling it out, Jake.  I wish I could have your patience.  Most threads like this on mountainproject could be rendered unnecessary if the posters would just back away from the keyboard, get outside, and silently OBSERVE for a few seasons how their respective climbing communities and cultures carry themselves at the crag.

Tradiban wrote:

Define "necessary".

Climbing is not necessary so bolts are never necessary.

Taking it a bit further I would go to say maybe necessary if someone is doing something such as to rescue and they need bolts to get somewhere for other reasons... still probably not "necessary".

Tradiban wrote:

Define "necessary".

Whatever makes the route the safest. I'd argue that trad routes benefit from permanent anchors and sport routes should be respected as they were established unless a disproportionate number of people are getting injured. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of mixed routes. I think they should be one or the other, as people who don't know any better are more likely to get in over their head and get hurt...but I realize that is just an opinion.

Another thing to consider is economic impact. Local governments and state parks in SWVA are opening up and actually funding development to an extent as part of the ecotourism movement. They want the most bang for their buck to bring in outside money for a return on their investment. Most often, that means sport climbing.

I've had my fair share of conversations with trad hard men that have nothing but disdain for sport and I get it. All I will say is that I'm stoked to see anyone climbing safely and promoting the sport as a whole in a positive light.

Nathan Witt wrote:

Whatever makes the route the safest. I'd argue that trad routes benefit from permanent anchors and sport routes should be respected as they were established unless a disproportionate number of people are getting injured. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of mixed routes. I think they should be one or the other, as people who don't know any better are more likely to get in over their head and get hurt...but I realize that is just an opinion.

Another thing to consider is economic impact. Local governments and state parks in SWVA are opening up and actually funding development to an extent as part of the ecotourism movement. They want the most bang for their buck to bring in outside money for a return on their investment. Most often, that means sport climbing.

I've had my fair share of conversations with trad hard men that have nothing but disdain for sport and I get it. All I will say is that I'm stoked to see anyone climbing safely and promoting the sport as a whole in a positive light.

Everything should be bolted every 5 ft or more (even trad routes because it makes them safer) if you go by whatever makes the route the safest.

Jake Jones wrote:

The factors you mention are important and do influence things like development, and this is kind of what drives the whole "local ethic" thing, which admittedly can vary widely from area to area.  I don't necessarily agree with the "what makes the route the safest" perspective.  If that was adopted, then everything would be bolted.  There is more margin for error (thus less "safety") when protecting with removable trad gear vs. bolts- and certainly strictly gear-protected routes exist there.  I'm not trying to start a side debate, and I certainly understand and agree with most of your perspective otherwise.  The mixed route debate is an old one.  In general, I tend to agree, but there is a certain undeniable subjectivity to it.  Personally, and this is just my opinion, if a single bolt goes in on an otherwise gear-protected route, that's more acceptable to me than something that is bolted/developed top down and has a contrived runout in it and requires a piece of gear to protect a long space in between bolts.  Again though, it's super subjective, and in this case, I would certainly defer to local ethics.

Jake, you make a lot of fantastic points. I guess what I am getting at is that climbing is no longer a fringe activity. We can't just shake our fists at the kids. There are gyms, youth teams, and college clubs everywhere now. The likelihood of injury is much higher now. By no means am I saying "bolt the planet" but I guess more of taking a step back, acknowledging where the sport is now, accepting, and making decisions according to what's best for each area. Just as important to establish and protect trad areas as sport. 

Jake Jones wrote:

 or do you have anything that will actually contribute to the conversation?

Not that I've ever seen.

Nathan Witt wrote:

Jake, you make a lot of fantastic points. I guess what I am getting at is that climbing is no longer a fringe activity. We can't just shake our fists at the kids. There are gyms, youth teams, and college clubs everywhere now. The likelihood of injury is much higher now. By no means am I saying "bolt the planet" but I guess more of taking a step back, acknowledging where the sport is now, accepting, and making decisions according to what's best for each area. Just as important to establish and protect trad areas as sport. 

I've climbed at a lot of areas around the US through the past few decades.  I've been a "local" at three major areas.  The cool thing about climbing is that it can be as safe or as dangerous as you want it to be.  At the New River Gorge, where I live now, we have faces that would have been beautiful sport lines that are blank, boltless canvases of bold gear-protected climbing.  We also have a few splitter cracks that would be G-rated on gear, but which are totally bolted.  Not too many people get butt-hurt about this, because we all default to...

wait for it...

RESPECTING THE FIRST ASCENTIONIST

Ah... the great mixed route debate. My personal ethic is that bolts be used with prudence to minimize our impact. If a route needs 1 bolt to be reasonably safe, place it. My deference is always to the first ascent on routes already completed. For first ascents, I dont believe in bolting a whole route just because it needs a couple bolts and i dont believe in putting up a new climb with zero bolts because it only needs 1.

Pnelson wrote: Props for spelling it out, Jake.  I wish I could have your patience.  Most threads like this on mountainproject could be rendered unnecessary if the posters would just back away from the keyboard, get outside, and silently OBSERVE for a few seasons how their respective climbing communities and cultures carry themselves at the crag.

Well said. A lot of issues in climbing would be solved if people would just slow down and take a look around.

Being able to assess the route and your ability to climb it safely is a key skill that new climbers seem to skip over these days. One of the great things about climbing is that if a particular route is not something you feel you can climb safely, there's always another route to get on instead. At a place like the New, it's likely right next to the one you are standing in front of. There's a long list of routes I haven't done because I didn't feel I was up to them at the time. Some of those I've gone back and climbed, some are still on the list, some I'll probably never do and that's OK too.

Pnelson wrote:  I wish I could have your patience.  Most threads like this on mountainproject could be rendered unnecessary if the posters would just back away from the keyboard, get outside, and silently OBSERVE for a few seasons how their respective climbing communities and cultures carry themselves at the crag.

I’ve been out to local crags about 20 times over the past few months. Haven’t run into a single other climber. As of now, There’s been nothing to observe. So I went searching for information at the only other place I knew I had access to. You’re contradicting yourself. Everyone’s like “why don’t you take the time to learn and do some research before you ask these questions....” - posting on a forum in hopes of finding more information on a topic and the best sources to reach out to sounds exactly like learning and researching to me. 

Kennedy Carey wrote:

I’ve been out to local crags about 20 times over the past few months. Haven’t run into a single other climber. As of now, There’s been nothing to observe. So I went searching for information at the only other place I knew I had access to. 

Something to consider is that you may be on a pretty well travel path that is leading somewhere other than it may seem right now. A lot of new climbers, myself included, will spend the first year or two running around central VA checking out our scruffy little crags (White Oak Canyon, Hidden Rocks, Wintergreen, etc.) and having adventures in the woods, while occasionally taking "trips" to Seneca and the New River Gorge.  

Pretty quickly though, most of us just start driving a few extra hours and climbing classic routes, on high quality stone at places in WV, NC, TN, KY, etc. and take trips to other parts of the country/world.

I'm not trashing our local resources and I'm glad they exist, but there is a reason they don't see a lot of return visits by folks. It's possible that they serve the community best in their current condition, as places for new climbers to explore and have some low key adventures so they don't get completely savaged by the slabs of North Carolina, as they expand their climbing horizons.

Just some personal thoughts and observations based on my experiences and having watched dozens of new climbers transition through the various phases many of us go through.