Virginia Bolting Ethics

I'm curious to find some info on the bolting and development ethics around Virginia. There's very few well developed climbing areas. (granted there's not a lot of rock to begin with) It seems the ones that are most well known are trad-centric. However, even with that being the case, I've been thinking a selection of well placed anchors and rap rings in some areas would be nice for the community.

Specific regulations for rock that lays inside Shenandoah National Park? Or State Parks? 

What about an urban structure like Manchester Wall in Richmond?

What about some undiscovered mediocre slab In the middle of the nowhere?

Looking for any information/resources about the topic. 

Well said Jake!

Kennedy Carey wrote: I'm curious to find some info on the bolting and development ethics around Virginia. There's very few well developed climbing areas. (granted there's not a lot of rock to begin with) It seems the ones that are most well known are trad-centric. However, even with that being the case, I've been thinking a selection of well placed anchors and rap rings in some areas would be nice for the community.

Specific regulations for rock that lays inside Shenandoah National Park? Or State Parks?

What about an urban structure like Manchester Wall in Richmond?

What about some undiscovered mediocre slab In the middle of the nowhere?

Looking for any information/resources about the topic.

Hey man, how's it going?  I've been climbing in this area for 15+ years and have done some rebolting and anchor upgrade work at various crags.  Do you have any examples of crags or routes you have in mind?  It might be easier to give a nuanced reply if we have some specific examples to go on.

Generally speaking, I have a few quick thoughts on these issues and also a personal invitation to extend.

1.  Everything Jake said is correct.

2.  People have been climbing in Virginia for decades and pretty much any easily accessible rock has been climbed and new route potential is limited.  Some of them were done with R/X protection or simply soloed. When in doubt, it's probably best to assume it has been climbed.

3.  Upgrading old bolts and anchors is generally encouraged, as long as it's done in accordance with the land managers regulations and you have the knowledge/equipment to do the job properly.

4.  Adding new bolts to existing climbs is very frowned on and has been the source of much controversy over the years, both here locally and around the country.  Adding anchors to existing routes is a little more of a grey area but should still be approached carefully.  If the only option is a tree that's now dead, that route might need an anchor.  If it's somewhere like Summit Crag at Old Rag, folks would be pretty upset if "convenience anchors" started popping up and it would violate the parks fixed hardware policy.  It really is important to tread carefully when adding new bolts, especially in an established trad climbing area.

I live in Richmond and would be happy to go to Manchester or Old Rag and do some climbing and talk about this in real detail. If you ever want to get outside, just shoot me a message on here.

Bryan

Thanks for the info so far guys! I’m not looking to run around bolting things I’m just looking to educate myself on the topic.

In the case of run out, of R rated routes. How is adding bolts a bad thing? Making it safer and more accessible for the community seems like a positive in every way.

Thoughts on trad routes: Bolting a trad route here and there to make it more accessible to new climber that may only have a few quick draws would open the route to more climbers. That being said, it doesn’t seem to prevent oneself from continuing to climb the line on gear and ignore the bolts if you want. It seems like it’s something that a few people would get there panties in a bunch over but the larger majority of climbers would appreciate/utilize.

You both mention controversy on the topic but I can’t find a trace of any conversations echoing that sentiment on the internet or in the modern/local climbing community within Virginia. Manchester-wall for example, I think 99% of people climbing there on a frequent basis seem to be stoked on the bolts and have no worries about the details of how it was bolted.

Thoughts?

Kennedy Carey wrote: 
Thoughts on trad routes: Bolting a trad route here and there to make it more accessible to new climber that may only have a few quick draws would open the route to more climbers. 

Great point.  Better yet, just put up a bunch of via ferratas to further expand accessibility.  Lowest common denominator mentality for the win.

Bolts increase traffic, which increases wear on the rock. Lack of bolts is something that annoys you at first but something you will appreciate in time, if you keep climbing. At least that's my take. 

"In the case of run out, of R rated routes. How is adding bolts a bad thing? Making it safer and more accessible for the community seems like a positive in every way."

Your last post clearly indicates the following:
1. You don't understand basic principles and ethics associated with rock climbing
2. You have absolutely no respect for the historical significance of first ascents
3. You are inexperienced and are blindly walking into an ethics debate that has been hashed out many, many times.

I would highly encourage you to spend some more time climbing, perhaps with some older climbers, before you consider picking up a drill and permanently altering any rocks.

Kennedy Carey wrote: Thanks for the info so far guys! I’m not looking to run around bolting things I’m just looking to educate myself on the topic.

In the case of run out, of R rated routes. How is adding bolts a bad thing? Making it safer and more accessible for the community seems like a positive in every way.

Thoughts on trad routes: Bolting a trad route here and there to make it more accessible to new climber that may only have a few quick draws would open the route to more climbers. That being said, it doesn’t seem to prevent oneself from continuing to climb the line on gear and ignore the bolts if you want. It seems like it’s something that a few people would get there panties in a bunch over but the larger majority of climbers would appreciate/utilize.

You both mention controversy on the topic but I can’t find a trace of any conversations echoing that sentiment on the internet or in the modern/local climbing community within Virginia. Manchester-wall for example, I think 99% of people climbing there on a frequent basis seem to be stoked on the bolts and have no worries about the details of how it was bolted.

Thoughts?

Adding bolts to R routes takes mental difficulty out of a route.  These types of routes require physical strength as well as mental strength.  There are plenty of fully bolted routes, no need to bolt the ones that are mental testpieces.  On the topic of bolting trad lines, that is frowned upon by the majority of the climbing community.  When that happens, all outdoor crags basically turn into a gym where you have the "option" of doing a climb as either trad or sport.  The only reason I train and sport climb is so that I can prepare myself for bold trad routes, which is what its all about for me.

Kennedy Carey wrote: Thanks for the info so far guys! I’m not looking to run around bolting things I’m just looking to educate myself on the topic.

In the case of run out, of R rated routes. How is adding bolts a bad thing? Making it safer and more accessible for the community seems like a positive in every way.

Thoughts on trad routes: Bolting a trad route here and there to make it more accessible to new climber that may only have a few quick draws would open the route to more climbers. That being said, it doesn’t seem to prevent oneself from continuing to climb the line on gear and ignore the bolts if you want. It seems like it’s something that a few people would get there panties in a bunch over but the larger majority of climbers would appreciate/utilize.

You both mention controversy on the topic but I can’t find a trace of any conversations echoing that sentiment on the internet or in the modern/local climbing community within Virginia. Manchester-wall for example, I think 99% of people climbing there on a frequent basis seem to be stoked on the bolts and have no worries about the details of how it was bolted.

Thoughts?

Surprisingly, making routes "safer and more accessible for the community" isn't really the point of rock climbing.

Your argument of just "ignore the bolts if you want" doesn't make sense because bolts inherently change the commitment of a route. You can always bail if shit goes sideways when there are bolts, that's not always the case on a pure trad climb.

Thanks for the link to that group and the info on Manchester Jake.

For everyone I want to reiterate that I have no desire to run around bolting up routes. lm super intrigued by the process of how it works and how it seems to be such a controversial topic.

I also want to ensure that those providing feedback are local VA climbers. As my hope is to get opinion/information for Virginia not anywhere else.

It seems that everyone is talking about routes as if there has been these historically brave first ascents on the most incredible rock faces in Virginia. And in reference to bolting them, the only option is to bolt every route poorly like a maniac or don't bolt anything at all. My only opinion in the matter as of now is that, to support the safety and development of the select few local VA crags, as well as to help grow the sport, It seems that adding some bolted rap rings, the occasional anchor, and a select number of bolted routes in areas that are overrun with only trad options would be a good thing and would be largely supported by the voiceless everyday climbers that are actually out climbing.

Also, keep in mind Seneca, The New, Red River, Etc.... these are all iconic crags and they are outside of VA. I'm talking about actual Virginia crags, the scrappy shit that no one will ever visit as a destination and only serves to cater to local climbers. 

Doesn't matter where it is... Retro-bolting for the sake of dumbing down is jackassery of the highest order. How about climbing for another 10 years... learning what it means to FA a route in good style then revisit the subject. 

Jake Jones wrote: There have been.  Routes like The The, Oh My God Dihedral, etc.  Hidden Valley also has really amazing rock and was closed down for quite some time by the landowners, and there are plenty of bold first ascents there as well.  So it's not like this never happens in VA.  There isn't a ton of rock quantity here, but there is good quality for most of what is here, and yes, brave first ascents have happened, and continue to.
Those clearly are not the only options.  If you're in an area that is open to development of bolt-protected sport routes and you find a really good line and want to go for it, then by all means have at it.  There are many facets to development, with regard to bolting and otherwise, and I don't think anyone is proclaiming the assertion that you're making.
Such as?
I hear this phrase all the time.  I'm not sure why it's so important.  With "growing the sport" comes numerous complications and problems, as well as benefits.  I'm just not sure why it's so important for everyone that this explosion of the popularity of climbing continues at an exponential level.
Why?  Why would that be a good thing?  Why is it so hard to accept that there are areas that through no fault of the climbers, and in opposition to the wishes of many climbers, sinking permanent fixed hardware into the rock simply isn't allowed, and that doing so could jeopardizing access for everyone?  Why does everything need to be accessible to everyone?  The only two areas that are primarily trad climbing destinations are Old Rag and Pinnacle Ridge.  They are this way not because it's some conspiracy of greedy old school trad climbers but because one is located in a National Park with a strictly adhered to climbing management plan, and the other is on National Forest land that prohibits bolting outright.  All the other areas mentioned, except bouldering areas, have developed sport routes.  It seems as though you have an axe to grind against any routes that aren't well protected.  Maybe a good start would be to add adopt some humility and realize that there are things that you don't have the skill set or strength or whatever to climb- yet.  There are pllleeeeeenty of routes out there like that for me, and I'm more than ok with that.  That means I'll always have something to aspire to.
I can't begin to understand what this means.
Old Rag and Hidden Valley, though not at the "iconic" status of the others mentioned, are certainly great crags with destination "status" within the state.  The rock quality is fantastic at both, the routes are varied at both, and both are in great, scenic settings.  One has plenty of sport climbing, and the other doesn't because of regulations not implemented by climbers.  As far as the "scrappy shit that no one will ever visit"- I think Elizabeth Furnace qualifies as that- only plenty of people visit there.  

The reality is that the quality of the rock, the size of the crag and the approach and all the other factors that classify and define a crag don't change a thing.  Bolting is either allowed there or not.  And in order to not jeopardize access for everyone, those regulations need to be adhered to.

you have the patience of a saint.  Gone Fishin could use a hardware upgrade.

Very appreciative to all the helpful information. No arguments here, just trying to present all sides so i can get an in depth viewpoint on bolting in VA.

With "growing the sport" comes numerous complications and problems, as well as benefits.  I'm just not sure why it's so important for everyone that this explosion of the popularity of climbing continues at an exponential level.

Just seems to me that growth is inevitable and should be welcomed. It has provided the opportunity for pro climbers to earn a living, gear and equipment to advance quicker due to a larger consumer market, climbing in general has become safer, and who doesn't love sharing the things they love? Of course there's growing pains. There always is, thats the way of life.

Why is it so hard to accept that there are areas that through no fault of the climbers, and in opposition to the wishes of many climbers, sinking permanent fixed hardware into the rock simply isn't allowed, and that doing so could jeopardizing access for everyone? 

Again, I'm here for the info. So learning about what areas are legally off limits to bolts is why I'm here. Gotta learn somewhere.

It seems as though you have an axe to grind against any routes that aren't well protected.  Maybe a good start would be to add adopt some humility and realize that there are things that you don't have the skill set or strength or whatever to climb- yet.  

Dude, Im a total scrub, fully aware of how trash I am at climbing. This has nothing to do with my ability levels.

"would largely be supported by the voiceless everyday climbers that are out climbing"
----I can't begin to understand what this means.

It means, the pool of opinions on a mountain project forum is a pretty small percent of real life climbers in the area. If I had some way to poll every climber at a local crag that's actually utilizing it I have a feeling 90% of people wouldn't give 2 fucks about bolting issues, they just want to climb, and would welcome safer and easier access.

As far as the "scrappy shit that no one will ever visit"

So If I find an undeveloped crag somewhere in VA what's the best approach for learning its bolting policies? 

Kennedy Carey wrote: Thanks for the info so far guys! I’m not looking to run around bolting things I’m just looking to educate myself on the topic.

In the case of run out, of R rated routes. How is adding bolts a bad thing? Making it safer and more accessible for the community seems like a positive in every way.

Thoughts on trad routes: Bolting a trad route here and there to make it more accessible to new climber that may only have a few quick draws would open the route to more climbers. That being said, it doesn’t seem to prevent oneself from continuing to climb the line on gear and ignore the bolts if you want. It seems like it’s something that a few people would get there panties in a bunch over but the larger majority of climbers would appreciate/utilize.

It sounds like you are really fired up and want to do something for the local climbing community.   That's awesome.   However, bolts aren't always the answer for a lot of the areas you're talking about.  Take a class on top rope anchors and learn how to set  things up using natural protection.   Hikers are the main user group in the Central and SW Va, so ethics need to be inline with that.   Adding bolts that detract from the aesthetics of the area will definitely threaten access, especially TR anchors that will be visible from the edge.   Something to really do your homework on would be what land these climbs are on, adding permanent equipment may also threaten access.  Sometimes just the increased traffic to an area can put it on the radar for access issues.   Keep the stoke, but educate yourself and find a mentor in the area.  

ze dirtbag wrote:

It sounds like you are really fired up and want to do something for the local climbing community.   That's awesome. 

For sure - The outdoor climbing scene in VA seems half assed. Hunting out new crags, FA's, and improvement opportunities is super intriguing to me. 

Take a class on top rope anchors and learn how to set  things up using natural protection.   Hikers are the main user group in the Central and SW Va, so ethics need to be inline with that.   Adding bolts that detract from the aesthetics of the area will definitely threaten access, especially TR anchors that will be visible from the edge. 

I know how to set anchors on gear, surprisingly enough I prefer trad over sport climbing and try to almost exclusive climb on gear. I love your point that hikers are the main group so one reason I think bolted anchors could help is that, some climbs in the national parks top out on hiking trails, so occasionally building an anchor can obscure the trail and become a tripping hazard, eye sore, and an interested hiker may be drawn to play with the shinny stuff in cracks. Adding some discrete  bolted anchors on the cliff edge could actually be of benefit to everyone in the park. 

Kennedy Carey wrote:

So If I find an undeveloped crag somewhere in VA what's the best approach for learning its bolting policies? 

There are really only two scenarios you will run in to, public and private land.

If it's on public land, they will likely have longstanding policies that will need to be followed. They vary between National Forest, National Park, State Park, City Park, etc. You will have to do some research and make some phone calls and find out about the specifics.

If it's on private land and you have the owners permission, you can develop the routes in any style you would like.  If you don't have permission, you are trespassing.  This is generally frowned on.

Thank you, Jake - most everything I want to say, and this discussion is relevant in many more places than just Virginia.

A couple of points to add.

Some of us like seeing the scrappy little non-destination areas.  Just went out of my way to see Mad River in Ohio.  Put that on your bucket list - after you've driven hours across the midwest, it is a welcome oasis.

An important value of R and X rated routes (Jake almost says this) is to teach you to draw a line.  In dealing with risk as a climber, you have to be able to decide "that's too risky - for me, today" and walk away.  Even on "modern" (i.e. closely bolted sport) climbs, you still need to make these judgements for yourself.  It's called "inherent risk", and you assume responsibility (legally) when you do something like climb.

There are numerous climbing advocacy groups in VA- first ones that come to mind are the Mid-Atlantic Climbers Coalition (based in northern VA/DC/Maryland) and the Central Appalachia Climbers Coalition (based in SW VA). I know both of those groups are very involved with stewardship and land access efforts, and should be your first step if you want further info on bolting policies...

this got me thinking about an area like great falls / carderock that's mainly protected at the top with trees (leading on gear is possible but discouraged).  if all the trees were to die, would fixed anchors (bolts?) be installed? i know that new bolting is prohibited by the NPS. 

Mikea Robinson should check out this Thread.

Kennedy, if you're interested in bolting here in VA, get in contact with the PATC-MS up in northern Virginia.  A few people in that group have been doing some development up at an area in Gore, VA called the Cove.