Multipitch anchor questions

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I think the difficultness of them is maybe exaggerated by most people--they're not that hard, and they have a lot of uses mid-pitch too. Not to derail this thread too far, but there's generally three spots where I'd consider a tricam over a cam:

1. Rounded pockets, huecos, pin scars, etc.: It's likely a cam won't even fit, but a tricam will. If a cam fits at all, it likely won't get as good of rock contact as the tricam.
2. Pebbly, uneven cracks: cam lobes will get bad surface area, whereas a tricam fulcrum slips in between the pebbles and locks in better.
3. Horizontals, especially if they're upward facing: a horizontal can often kink the stem of a cam, whereas the sling on a tricam will just bend over the edge.

I only used tricams on a few routes in Red Rock (but they were indispensable on those routes). Used them a bunch at T-Wall but could have done without them. In the Gunks they're pretty ubiquitous.

I agree that the difficulty is exaggerated.  I started leading with tricams and never found them particularly difficult to place.  Pretty easy to do one handed and the smaller ones take up next to no space/mass on your rack.  To be honest, I would say that smaller active cams that fit that black/pink/red size are actually harder to place well, given the narrow margin of error.

David Kerkeslager wrote: I only used tricams on a few routes in Red Rock (but they were indispensable on those routes). 

Indispensable is such a strong word don´t you find ?

Jim Titt wrote:

Indispensable is such a strong word don´t you find ?

True. :)

The routes where tricams are indispensable are rare, but they exist.

In this case, the two routes in question had small huecos in which tricams are the only thing which could fit. Without anything to put in those pockets, the last 12ish meters of the 20m climbs would have been unprotected. I suppose one more strong and confident than myself could solo more than half the pitch, but for me the tricams were indispensable. :)

However, I've been to Red Rocks twice and those were the only routes I placed tricams on.

JCM wrote: The above is all true for routes where you need to build a gear anchor at every belay. While this is the case at remote or old-school areas, in 2018 this has become the exception rather than the rule on popular multipitch routes. You’ll often find 2 bolt anchors at most belays, even on trad routes. Or belay at a tree, or fixed pins, or a big slung horn, etc..

I guess it depends on where you climb but I can only think of 2-3 routes trad multipitch I've ever been on that had a single bolted anchor.  None that had them all bolted. 

jason.cre wrote:

I guess it depends on where you climb but I can only think of 2-3 routes trad multipitch I've ever been on that had a single bolted anchor.  None that had them all bolted. 

FACT

David Kerkeslager wrote:

True. :)

The routes where tricams are indispensable are rare, but they exist.

In this case, the two routes in question had small huecos in which tricams are the only thing which could fit. Without anything to put in those pockets, the last 12ish meters of the 20m climbs would have been unprotected. I suppose one more strong and confident than myself could solo more than half the pitch, but for me the tricams were indispensable. :)

However, I've been to Red Rocks twice and those were the only routes I placed tricams on.

A black tricam made the 20’ or so of delicate faceclimbing at the start of P2 of Great Red Book MUCH safer.

Ryan, it looks like you might live right near me?  I'd be happy to spend a day out with you at some point and talk about all this stuff in depth and maybe some demos if you want.  I'm sending you a PM.
Phyl

JCM wrote: The above is all true for routes where you need to build a gear anchor at every belay. While this is the case at remote or old-school areas, in 2018 this has become the exception rather than the rule on popular multipitch routes. You’ll often find 2 bolt anchors at most belays, even on trad routes. Or belay at a tree, or fixed pins, or a big slung horn, etc..

Maybe we've just climbed at completely different crags but I'd say the 2 bolt anchors at most belays seems to be the exception not the rule.

jason.cre wrote:

I guess it depends on where you climb but I can only think of 2-3 routes trad multipitch I've ever been on that had a single bolted anchor.  None that had them all bolted. 

Jason, at least in the areas I climb, bolted anchors are getting to be much more common on newly developed multipitch trad routes.  For example, if you look at all the new route development at PSOM in Pine Creek, many of them have bolted anchors.  And as was said, they are not uncommon in Red Rocks.

phylp wrote:

Jason, at least in the areas I climb, bolted anchors are getting to be much more common on newly developed multipitch trad routes.  For example, if you look at all the new route development at PSOM in Pine Creek, many of them have bolted anchors.  And as was said, they are not uncommon in Red Rocks.

I wonder what the reasoning/justification is?

tl;dr all the replies

Tricams. I always bring 2 pinks and one of the next 3 or so sizes to use in the anchor. They're bomber, and I generally don't want to use the time placing them on a route when I can place a quick cam or even a nut. (I have the older, floppy tricams which make it hard to place from anything other than a solid stance.) I don't think I've ever only used tricams, but they certainly can save a cam or two.

jason.cre wrote:

I wonder what the reasoning/justification is?

for pine creek, it is because there is not a walk off for most climbs/crags

climbing friend,

Derail all you want, my question was answered with great detail already and I can always use more info on the things I wouldbt think to ask about.  

Another good idea is trying to use other forms of pro as much as possible. Sling chockstones, clip older (but solid) pitons, sling trees, sling horns. Granted all of that is much easier for anchors at a stance, but on moderate long routes it shouldn't be ruled out. 

I'm having trouble understanding the lines on multipitch topos.  Such as the ones placed drawn along the crack or an arete.  Anything I should know when reading one?

Ryan U. wrote: Anything I should know when reading one?

1) Topos aren't perfect.

2) Topos are still more perfect than me.

3) I've become confused as fuck looking for a bolt, when it had been chopped in the 15 years since the topo was published.

Ryan U. wrote: I'm having trouble understanding the lines on multipitch topos.  Such as the ones placed drawn along the crack or an arete.  Anything I should know when reading one?

The lines “placed drawn” on cracks aren’t cracks, those lines indicative it’s a corner. The lines on the arete are telling you it’s an arete. 

kevin deweese wrote:

The lines “placed drawn” on cracks aren’t cracks, those lines indicative it’s a corner. The lines on the arete are telling you it’s an arete. 

Like this:

Thanks! It was the lines that represented corner systems and grooves vs arete that I didnt understand.   The map legend is exactly what I needed!