Nothing to see here just another lower/rap thread now

Jake Jones wrote:

Putting unnecessary wear on fixed gear isn't a crutch for incompetence.  I don't know what's so hard to understand.

I guess you advocate rappelling whenever the route allows it then?

So I guess instead of just "cleaning" a sport anchor like civilized people, we should complicate the process to reduce wear marginally but increase the potential for screwing up significantly.

Please explain to me how taking up the next groups draws, clipping them to the anchor, clipping the rope into them, taking your draws, and lowering will "increase the potential for screwing up significantly". Honestly I would greatly appreciate an explanation of how to thread chains that is easier, or even as easy as what I just described.

Alex R wrote:

I guess you advocate rappelling whenever the route allows it then?

Please explain to me how taking up the next groups draws, clipping them to the anchor, clipping the rope into them, taking your draws, and lowering will "increase the potential for screwing up significantly". Honestly I would greatly appreciate an explanation of how to thread chains that is easier, or even as easy as what I just described.

I think he just latched onto the things you said that he disagrees with, and ignored this. I also disagree with some of the other stuff, but this is solid advice. This operates just like cleaning by lowering, but even simpler. No one comes off belay to do it. It's also just good karma.

Alex R wrote:

I guess you advocate rappelling whenever the route allows it then?

Jake's statement that you neglected to quote fully was: "Putting unnecessary wear on fixed gear isn't a crutch for incompetence.  I don't know what's so hard to understand.  Don't top rope through fixed gear.  It's not necessary and not acceptable. "

He's saying that lowering is acceptable and necessary wear; TRing through the anchors isn't. He's not advocating rappelling.

Please explain to me how taking up the next groups draws, clipping them to the anchor, clipping the rope into them, taking your draws, and lowering will "increase the potential for screwing up significantly". Honestly I would greatly appreciate an explanation of how to thread chains that is easier, or even as easy as what I just described.

I thought he was referring to the OP and their self-lowering method.

Alex R wrote:

P.S. I am sure this will be misinterpreted as advocating top-roping through the anchors, but I am going to say it anyways. Top-roping through the anchors can in some scenarios be safer then having the last person in the group thread the anchors and lower. I says this not to advocate it, but just to counter the assumption everyone else seems to be making in this thread. The scenario I am referring to is as follows:  An experienced climber is with a group of inexperienced friends, the experienced climber leads the route and the rest of the group top-rope. Top-roping through the anchors means it is the experienced climber untying threading the anchor and retying, instead of one of the inexperienced climbers. This is quite obviously safer. Now the better solution is to have the experienced climber reclimb the route at the end, but my point is that just having whoever is last to climb the route thread the anchor, can be less safe then climbing in the same order and threading the anchor earlier.

I would MUCH rather see extra wear on an anchor than see anybody get hurt.

So, IMHO, do whatever you need to do to keep your group safe.

But, it's kind of selfish and lazy not to have the experienced climber repeat the route and clean the anchor if that's what it takes.

Expect to get some grief if you are TRing though the chains. A little verbal abuse won't kill anyone.

On another subject, I really like the idea of swapping out the next group's draws on the anchor.

(Fortunately I don't have to climb at such crowded crags at the moment.)

Let me return the conversation back to the original question for a moment. I can think of two valuable reasons not to top rope through the anchors that haven't been mentioned yet one of which is related to increased wear.

Top rope falls though usually small, can be larger if the belayer is inattentive. I am not familiar with the dynamics of rope wear on metal, but it at least seems possible that these short but fast and high force jerks through the top do more damage.

Not wear related, but another reason to use your own anchor. Threading the anchors often introduces extra rope drag, either because the anchors are horizontally separated, or because they are over top of a lip. Avoiding this drag in the system allows the belayer to more easily pull out slack, as well as decreasing wear on the rope. The rope being a more expensive piece of gear than a few biners, this seems like reason in itself for using your own anchor.

Aidan, self-lowering is a great alternative to lowering. It DOES reduce wear on anchors because the friction from the rope is unweighted. I also don't find it to be any more or less safe, so my typical practice is to self-lower off of routes

If you are really trying to reduce wear, the counterweight rappel would accomplish what you are trying to but even better since the rope never moves with the climbers weight on it.  This has a few other advantages including much less wear on your rope, less aluminum oxide on your rope, less abrasion over the rock which often leaves scares or in the case of soft rock, deep rope grooves and when you reach the ground you are already setup to belay your partner for TR. 

If you can self lower...you can rappel. Just get to rappelling already and quit holding up the rest of the world with ridiculous mathematical errors.