yosemite finish on a figure 8 knot?

Aaah, that I can see.  So it’s not a free hanging tail, but a closed loop formed from the barrel knot.  That makes sense (in a stupid kind of way).

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Well, I have seen people clip the tail at the gym. So it isn't a complete non-issue for some people.

I watched a guy do it yesterday evening and he realized it instantly. There was some color commentary and another clipping call. There followed a big discussion about tail length and knots. Basically the consensus was the Yosemite finish sucks for lead climbing because it makes the knot harder to undo after the climb especially after a fall. There was a lot of interest in the bowline after that. You get an odd look from climbing partners when you perform a no look tie in with a non figure eight. The reality is that I can tie in and untie faster than most people tie the figure 8. That makes a big difference to me in preservation of strength and speed in rigging to lower or rappel.

Forrest Halley wrote:

I watched a guy do it yesterday evening and he realized it instantly. There was some color commentary and another clipping call. There followed a big discussion about tail length and knots. Basically the consensus was the Yosemite finish sucks for lead climbing because it makes the knot harder to undo after the climb especially after a fall. There was a lot of interest in the bowline after that. You get an odd look from climbing partners when you perform a no look tie in with a non figure eight. The reality is that I can tie in and untie faster than most people tie the figure 8. That makes a big difference to me in preservation of strength and speed in rigging to lower or rappel.

He realized what instantly?  That he's a gumby and hasn't figured out how to tie knots yet?  Yes, the yosemite finish does suck.  It serves no purpose at all.  If you don't know how to tie a figure 8 without leaving 3 feet of tail that you mistakenly clip in thinking it's your lead line, then you shouldn't be attempting a bowline.  It's good that you can save those precious muscle fibers and 4 seconds when you're tying in and untying at rap stations or lowering for some unknown reason.  Personally, if I'm lowering or rappelling, I only untie once.  Never really got pumped doing it.  YMMV

rgold wrote: Perhaps the main concern would be for those (like me) who clip their belay device to the rope tie-in loop rather than the harness belay loop.  

Why do you do this?  

I gave up on reading this thread after the first page, and I'm not diving down a youtube hole; however, a quick glance at the first post suggests the Yosemite finish might be finished incorrectly - the tail is tucked straight down rather than around the front side of the rope and down. I think that makes a big strength difference in the somewhat irrelevant ring loading scenario.

Chris treggE wrote:

Why do you do this?  

Dunno about Rich but I clip into both.....easy redundancy with no extra hassle.

Chris treggE wrote:

Why do you do this?  

I learned it thirteen years ago from Black Diamond harness designer Tom Jones on rec.climbing; see groups.google.com/forum/#!t….  

Here is the relevant quote:

The method it is relatively common in the UK, see for example ukclimbing.com/articles/ski… .  The British system doesn't clip belay loop and rope loop,  just the rope loop,  presumably because otherwise there is a tricky adjustment issue to keep the load off the belay loop and so off the harness.  Not mentioned in the quote is that removing the harness altogether as an intermediary in transmitting a belay load to the anchor results in a substantial increase in comfort for the belayer.

Ya, my tie in loop of rope is smaller than the belay loop so it goes straight on the rope and to the anchor.

It never ceases to amaze me that newbies have no clue about stuff like this and ie instead use Guide Mode that they don't even understand how to use.

Ted Pinson wrote: I’m really confused...how could you “clip” the tail, anyways?  Even an excessively long one would just slide right out and you would immediately know it was wrong.

I did it a few times when clipping below the waist (to a long runner on easy terrain).

don'tchuffonme wrote:

He realized what instantly?  That he's a gumby and hasn't figured out how to tie knots yet?  Yes, the yosemite finish does suck.  It serves no purpose at all.  If you don't know how to tie a figure 8 without leaving 3 feet of tail that you mistakenly clip in thinking it's your lead line, then you shouldn't be attempting a bowline.  It's good that you can save those precious muscle fibers and 4 seconds when you're tying in and untying at rap stations or lowering for some unknown reason.  Personally, if I'm lowering or rappelling, I only untie once.  Never really got pumped doing it.  YMMV

He realized that he clipped the tail. If you slowed your troll long enough to engage the brain for other purposes than dimwittedly tooting your own horn, you would have deduced that from the quoted text in my post.

Keyboard courage rises again. You're clearly an awesome climber because you never get pumped and don't have to conserve energy where ever and whenever. Maybe you need to step up to some bigger routes? Sadly, I live in the real world where I work for my gains and try like hell to do things with as much technique and efficiency as I possibly can.  I try to save my scrawny ass from falling off the rock or the gym wall by reaching the top before I run out of gas. I've met several folks that dislike the effort involved in undoing the figure 8. I teach them the bowline and show them ways to lock it off. Someone taught me the bowline when I was having trouble with undoing the figure 8 after climbs because sadly, I was pumped. 

rgold wrote: Doesn't it depend on what you are testing and what the consequences of disregarding an outlier are.? If a rocket blows up on the launching pad, do you view that as a "next to nothing" result?  What if you already have an independent analysis that says the rocket should blow up and then it does.  Is that too a "next to nothing" result?

When you test a rocket, you have already completed a gauntlet of tests of individual subsystems and components, and perhaps some All-Up-Round (AUR) testing that stops short of launching the whole thing.  By the time you are at launch you have to have absolute confidence in the ability to launch successfully, so you enter the test with the condition of only doing one trial (the launch itself).  This is an apples to oranges comparison.

Forrest Halley wrote:

He realized that he clipped the tail. If you slowed your troll long enough to engage the brain for other purposes than dimwittedly tooting your own horn, you would have deduced that from the quoted text in my post.

Keyboard courage rises again. You're clearly an awesome climber because you never get pumped and don't have to conserve energy where ever and whenever.

Fallacious.  Nowhere did I say I never get pumped.  I said I never got pumped untying a knot.

 Maybe you need to step up to some bigger routes? 

Maybe?  Bigger how?  Like more pitches?  I still only untie once, and that's when I'm rapping off or walking off.  Never got pumped untying there either.

Sadly, I live in the real world where I work for my gains and try like hell to do things with as much technique and efficiency as I possibly can.  I try to save my scrawny ass from falling off the rock or the gym wall by reaching the top before I run out of gas.

I hear you.  I just don't know what that has to do with untying.

 I've met several folks that dislike the effort involved in undoing the figure 8. I teach them the bowline and show them ways to lock it off. Someone taught me the bowline when I was having trouble with undoing the figure 8 after climbs because sadly, I was pumped. 

I've had a problem with the 8 getting welded too- especially when I'm working on something and whipping all over it.  Out of curiosity, what bowling are you showing people and what "ways to lock it off" do you use?  I still fail to see what this has to do with efficiency.  It sounds like you're having trouble untying it when you get to the ground on a single pitch route- which I can relate to.  But do you really get that much gain out of untying a knot easier?  Does having to work a little to get a figure 8 out totally destroy you for the day?  I don't get what you're saying when you refer to untying a knot and say this: "That makes a big difference to me in preservation of strength and speed in rigging to lower or rappel."

don'tchuffonme wrote:   I said I never got pumped untying a knot.
I hear you.  I just don't know what that has to do with untying.

I've had a problem with the 8 getting welded too- especially when I'm working on something and whipping all over it.  Out of curiosity, what bowline are you showing people and what "ways to lock it off" do you use?  I still fail to see what this has to do with efficiency.  It sounds like you're having trouble untying it when you get to the ground on a single pitch route- which I can relate to.  But do you really get that much gain out of untying a knot easier?  Does having to work a little to get a figure 8 out totally destroy you for the day?  I don't get what you're saying when you refer to untying a knot and say this: "That makes a big difference to me in preservation of strength and speed in rigging to lower or rappel."

I'm pumped by the end of the route and I detest having to fight a knot that's welded, stuck, or whatever adjective you want to use to describe not coming out easily. Now we can all flex our muscles and pump our fists singing "Tradition!!!" like Fiddler on the Roof, stick to the eight and extol how people can check it and it's so well known. Or we can consider other possibilities that work well for us when we are tired. I like and personally use the Lee locked bowline. It's a bowline that uses two figure six loops stacked on top before the rabbit comes out of the hole, around the tree and back in the hole. I then use a Yosemite finish. I also show folks how to use a regular bowline with a fisherman finish. I teach it by bending the line across itself or by making the six(es) ahead of time right or left handed depending on what the person is most comfortable with. I also stress the need for a finish for safety with the bowline due to slipping concerns when used with a dynamic load.  Efficiency comes from being able to undo the knot quickly and move on as opposed to fighting with it so others may climb. Not fighting the 8 means I have to time to do other things like drink water or eat a snack while still keeping the vibes positive. 

rgold wrote: ... Perhaps the main concern would be for those (like me) who clip their belay device to the rope tie-in loop rather than the harness belay loop...

Hi there.  Can I please ask why you do this?   

Maybe read the 100 or so explanations he’s already given?

Carl Schneider wrote:

Hi there.  Can I please ask why you do this?   

Carl, if you scroll up about 8 posts from yours, you'll find the most recent of those hundred explanations Ted mentions.

Sam Miller wrote: I wouldnt put much thought into an unscientific test like that.

Edit to clarify: there isnt enough data here to accept or reject the hypothesis that a yosemite finish weakens a fig 8.

Plenty of scientific data comes from one-offs, just not statistically analyzable data (just try recreating Pangea at least 5 times...)

rgold wrote:

Carl, if you scroll up about 8 posts from yours, you'll find the most recent of those hundred explanations Ted mentions.

Thank you.  I did use the search function but couldn't find it. :-)

rgold wrote:

Carl, if you scroll up about 8 posts from yours, you'll find the most recent of those hundred explanations Ted mentions.

Oh just read it.  That sounds very logical. I might start doing that.  My climbing partner always 'accuses' me of overthinking things. But I just think I'm thinking not OVER thinking.  A recent change based on this forum is using the Yosemite finish as well as stopper knots on a bowline that we use on a bollard for our top rope setup.  He uses just a bowline and refuses to listen to reasons why this is not a good idea.  he goes so far to say a bowline without a finish or a stopper knot is 'the recommended way' and in my reading this is almost the opposite of the truth.  We almost had a full on argument about this the other day.

Carl Schneider wrote:

Oh just read it.  That sounds very logical. I might start doing that.  My climbing partner always 'accuses' me of overthinking things. But I just think I'm thinking not OVER thinking.  A recent change based on this forum is using the Yosemite finish as well as stopper knots on a bowline that we use on a bollard for our top rope setup.  He uses just a bowline and refuses to listen to reasons why this is not a good idea.  he goes so far to say a bowline without a finish or a stopper knot is 'the recommended way' and in my reading this is almost the opposite of the truth.  We almost had a full on argument about this the other day.

A Bowline properly tied is plenty strong (which is what he is focusing on).

But precisely why it is used in sailing (and brought over to climbing) is because it is so easy to untie (albeit sailing ropes are different). It should always have the tag tied into a safety of some kind. There have been numerous accidents in climbing because of Bowline knots (w/o safeties) coming untied. The ones I recall were knots that were not continuously weighted (harness tie in). Something used to tie around a tree for an anchor wouldn't have the movement that can work a harness tie in loose, true, but still not recommended.

Even an overhand safety is fine and literally takes seconds (I use a double fisherman's).