Manic wannabe-climber rant... feel free to troll me

Why can't I climb 12a?

In 2001 I had been climbing for 12 years, almost exclusively trad and bigwalls.  I'd never sport climbed much or pushed my body (tended to get injured) but I did a few 11b's.  I saw this climb called Metal Blade in a "Master's of Stone" video: Dan Osman was soloing it and it was rated 12a.  I got on it: a huge dyno to start, then maybe 5.10 climbing to the top, 25' away.  

I tried this thing on TR about 25 times before I finally got the dyno and then sent the thing.  And lucky me, my friend was recording (on a camcorder... remember those!).  But then I tried to lead it and I couldn't repeat the dyno.  FML!!!

Later, in the week before my wedding (which was in the RRG), I tried a 12a in the Red.  Impossible.  So I have never climbed 12a.  (I don't count Metal Blade: it was TRed and the route isn't even in mountainproject.)

Then I quit climbing for 15 years (tenure, kids, responsibilities) even though I lived in Boulder.

---

In 2016 I found myself divorced, teenage kids, tenure in the bag, 54 years old.  I decided to start climbing again. My friend took me up Bastille Crack (5.7) and I fell off. Not because I slipped, but because I just could not hold on... my forearms were like jelly.  I barely made the top.

A year and a half later, tons of training, bouldering, gym climbing, solo TRs outside, hangboarding, losing some weight, etc., I am once again climbing around 11b, just like 17 years ago.  And it feels about as hard as it used to (strenuous, but doable).  So once again I decided to just try a 12a.  I picked one in Clear Creek that is just beautiful.  Steep, short, powerful, no crimps, easy to solo TR, no crowds and plenty of jake-braking trucks-in-a-tunnel for ambiance.

But this thing is sooo freaking hard.

I have spent 3 days on this climb now.  It's 5 bolts long, and I have linked to the 4th bolt (it's maybe 11a to there), but the remaining 15' to the chains is just super hard.  I can't even do the moves off the hang.  I dangle in space staring at the blobs of chalk where better climbers floated up this "warm up" climb before getting on the harder climbs to the right.   What do I have to do to be good enough?  Which gods must I propitiate?  Am I too old to get better?  My body is always on the edge of injury, training 4 days a week.

And yet I am in love.  The movement is intoxicating and makes me feel like a god (until the 4th bolt).  

Yet I hate it when I'm there.

But then can't wait to go back.  

What sickness is this?

How much do you boulder? Whatever your answer is, it's not enough.

John RB wrote:
Why can't I climb 12a?

A year and a half later, tons of training, bouldering, gym climbing, solo TRs outside, hangboarding, losing some weight, etc., I am once again climbing around 11b, just like 17 years ago.  And it feels about as hard as it used to (strenuous, but doable).  So once again I decided to just try a 12a.  I picked one in Clear Creek that is just beautiful.  Steep, short, powerful, no crimps, easy to solo TR, no crowds and plenty of jake-braking trucks-in-a-tunnel for ambiance.

But this this is sooo freaking hard.

I have spent 3 days on this climb now.  It's 5 bolts long, and I have linked to the 4th bolt (it's maybe 11a to there), but the remaining 15' to the chains is just super hard.  I can't even do the moves off the hang.  I dangle in space staring at the blobs of chalk where better climbers floated up this "warm up" climb before getting on the harder climbs to the right.   What do I have to do to be good enough?  Which gods must I propitiate?  Am I too old to get better?  My body is always on the edge of injury, training 4 days a week.

The bolded part is your problem. if you are climbing 11b, don’t just randomly try a 12a. Get on 11c. Several of them. And 11d’s. And work to send them with the same passion you throw at that 12a. It will happen sooner than if you just try to jump three grades. And you will get stronger, and send that 12a that you fell in love with. 

Sounds like you are just trusting the grade. Try different 12s not just a single 12a. Although grades in a gym are even worst normally I have sat there and scratched my head wondering why something was graded V6 or 12 but than watched other people I know well who can climb alot stronger than me fall repeatedly on something I could onsight and repeatedly climb again without fall. Different style of climbing or just bad grading is sometimes the issue so stop going to a single 12a and get on some different climbs to try.

John RB wrote:It's 5 bolts long, and I have linked to the 4th bolt (it's maybe 11a to there), but the remaining 15' to the chains is just super hard.

As Lena said, you need to build 5.12a pyramid  - a lot of 11a,11b,11c,11d.

I am going to guess from your post that even getting to the 4th bolt was a bit of work? Then the actual crux is 4 grades above your redpoint, no wonder it feels really, really hard.
One shortcut would be trying similar moves on similar holds in a bouldering gym.

John RB wrote:
Why can't I climb 12a?

Then I quit climbing for 15 years... even though I lived in Boulder.

...Which gods must I propitiate?  

You owe the climbing gods big time for those 15 years. I really don't know what it will take to make amends. Maybe you can sell everything and join the van life circuit for a decade or so. That might do the trick.

Why are people so obsessed with climbing a grade? I guess we all climb for different reasons.

5.12 in a way represents a mastery of climbing. Sure, its easy for some people. But for most average people consistently climbing 5.12 means you have an advanced level of climbing skill. With that in mind, why do you think you should be able to climb a 5.12? Have you put the time in? Have you climbed enough 5.10s? How about enough 5.11s?

When you do throw yourself at a 5.12 enough to send it, what's next? Call yourself a 5.12 climber? The thing is, that your are NOT a 5.12 climber, you climbed one (or a few) 5.12s and it wasn't an onsight. You probably can't even do the hard 5.11s in the canyon.

Andrew R wrote: The pyramid is one way to go... but the first 11 i sent was 11c and first 12 was 12b so it’s not exactly essential.

Boulder more. Make up circuits with 30+ moves on V2-V4 terrain. You’ll learn how to make powerful moves when you’re tired. Good luck. 

I think when you are first starting to go through the grades, the pyramid is irrelevant, because you don't even know where you are at. I onsighted my first 11a before I had redpointed my first 10d or 10c. of course it turned out that this 11a wasn't actually an 11a at all, it goes by 10c now, I think... But thinking that i had onsighted 11a, I redpointed by first 11b before I redpointed any 10c's or 10d's.

But for someone who's been climbing for a while and has platoed, and for someone older, jumping multiple grades is more likely to result in a shut down, or injury, than in success. Besides, the OP HAS tried this kind of jumping before, and it doesn't seem to work for him...

I agree with you on the bouldering, for sure!  But it does get harder to build power and not get injured with age.

I think pyramids are good way to build consistency at a grade, but if you're just trying to bag your first one, then they're not really necessary. Bag your first one so you know it's possible, then fill in behind and build a pyramid for consistency.

If you can't do the moves, then you need to boulder more. How are you training? Are you resting enough? You don't build muscle when you train, you build muscle when you rest. I'd climb every other day or so, with an occasional two day period of rest when you feel you need it. Eventually you can bump that up. If you feel like you're resting too much, then start doing opposition training and core work on the down days. Shoulders, elbows, abdominals, and back. Because I'm a weekend warrior, I'll typically try to climb T/Th in the gym, and then do Sat/Sun outside. On Sat I project since I'm rested and strong. On Sun, I do volume, try to onsight at my limit, or climb something a bit harder in just a few goes. 

It also sounds like you've picked a climb where the grade comes from the 15' boulder problem. Unless you're already a strong boulderer, and it sounds like maybe you're not, that's going to be a difficult first 12a. Find a climb you're psyched on that the grade comes from the pump and the length, not the moves in 15 short feet. There are 3 bolt 11a's here that have harder movement and boulder problems than some of the 12's in the Red that I've done. Try three or four different 12a's and see which one suits you best or which one you're the most psyched on.

You mentioned solo TRing. Are you only climbing solo? Start climbing with other people who are better climbers (not just stronger, but better) than you are. They'll be able to help you identify good beta, and where your weaknesses are as well as suggestions on how to improve.

Also, be patient. These things don't happen in a day. It takes time. Climbing hard routes never gets easier, you just get stronger.

So many great comments... and very little trolling. :)

---
Responding to several comments from above:

Bouldering: I pretty much climb routes 2 days a week, and boulder the other two (one day for strength, one for circuits, both indoors).  So yeah, lots of bouldering.  The bonus: bouldering is super fun.  I could easily give up route climbing and just boulder forever.  Maybe I should boulder more outside, but I'm not sure I'd want to go solo... a lot of highballs here and a spotter would be nice.

Pyramids: I'm doing pyramids, for the most part.  I didn't mean to imply in my OP that this is the only thing I ever climb... I have several 11a/b/c projects that get more of my attention.  This 12a just captured my imagination.  (Sidenote: my friend always skips the 'd' grade in his pyramid, insisting that 10d is harder than 11a, 11d harder than 12a, etc.  I may do the same.)

Grades: I'm not trying to climb 5.12 to spray about it.  Most of my friends don't climb and those who do climb harder than I ever will.  No one cares about the grade.  I just noted the grade in my OP because it is a benchmark line that was where "really hard" started in 2001 when I quit, and it's still there. Like reboot said, standards have risen but climbing hasn't gotten easier!

  

John RB wrote:
Pyramids: I'm doing pyramids, for the most part.  I didn't mean to imply in my OP that this is the only thing I ever climb... I have several 11a/b/c projects that get more of my attention.  This 12a just captured my imagination.  (Sidenote: my friend always skips the 'd' grade in his pyramid, insisting that 10d is harder than 11a, 11d harder than 12a, etc.  I may do the same.)

I had flashed several 12's before I sent my first 11d. We joke around and call them "don't" grades. All the pain, none of the glory. 

Alexander Stathis wrote: I think pyramids are good way to build consistency at a grade, but if you're just trying to bag your first one, then they're not really necessary. Bag your first one so you know it's possible, then fill in behind and build a pyramid for consistency.

Just to bag one?  Maybe... I don't know.  I don't really have a plan.  I just liked the climb, so I tried it.  My climbing will never matter to anyone but me... I'll never go pro, the magazines don't care what I do, I'm not sponsored.  This is just a gumby in the forest trying to entertain himself.

If you can't do the moves, then you need to boulder more. How are you training? Are you resting enough? You don't build muscle when you train, you build muscle when you rest. I'd climb every other day or so, with an occasional two day period of rest when you feel you need it. Eventually you can bump that up. If you feel like you're resting too much, then start doing opposition training and core work on the down days. Shoulders, elbows, abdominals, and back. Because I'm a weekend warrior, I'll typically try to climb T/Th in the gym, and then do Sat/Sun outside. On Sat I project since I'm rested and strong. On Sun, I do volume, try to onsight at my limit, or climb something a bit harder in just a few goes. 

This is almost exactly my schedule.  Although I just moved to an "eight day week" so I have a rest day after every climbing/training day.  Goes like this:

Project day (outside)
Rest
Volume day (outside)
Rest
Strength day (indoor bouldering plus hangboard)
Rest
SE day (indoor bouldering circuits)
Rest

This is possible only because it's summer and school's out.  Once classes resume in late August, I'll have to adjust.

It also sounds like you've picked a climb where the grade comes from the 15' boulder problem. Unless you're already a strong boulderer, and it sounds like maybe you're not, that's going to be a difficult first 12a. 

I'm bouldering exclusively in the gym.  V3 is usually a flash, V4 in a few tries.  I've done a couple of V6's, but usually they're super hard.  Translating to outdoor grades, I am probably a V2 boulderer outside (meaning I can climb V2 with some work).  A 12a crux is probably V4/V5, so yeah... I have a ways to go.

You mentioned solo TRing. Are you only climbing solo? Start climbing with other people who are better climbers (not just stronger, but better) than you are. They'll be able to help you identify good beta, and where your weaknesses are as well as suggestions on how to improve.

I am only climbing solo.  It has huge advantages, including being able to skip a day if I'm not feeling great, start/end the day whenever I want, go to areas without having to talk someone else into it, etc.  But you are completely right that I would benefit immensely from climbing with a partner.  Of course right now my climbing days are all over the place on my schedule, and a lot of people don't have the summer off and have to work.

But yeah... partners would be good. :)

John RB wrote: Just to bag one?  Maybe... I don't know.  I don't really have a plan.  I just liked the climb, so I tried it.  My climbing will never matter to anyone but me... I'll never go pro, the magazines don't care what I do, I'm not sponsored.  This is just a gumby in the forest trying to entertain himself.

This is almost exactly my schedule.  Although I just moved to an "eight day week" so I have a rest day after every climbing/training day.  Goes like this:

Project day (outside)
Rest
Volume day (outside)
Rest
Strength day (indoor bouldering plus hangboard)
Rest
SE day (indoor bouldering circuits)
Rest

This is possible only because it's summer and school's out.  Once classes resume in late August, I'll have to adjust.

I'm bouldering exclusively in the gym.  V3 is usually a flash, V4 in a few tries.  I've done a couple of V6's, but usually they're super hard.  Translating to outdoor grades, I am probably a V2 boulderer outside (meaning I can climb V2 with some work).  A 12a crux is probably V4/V5, so yeah... I have a ways to go.

I am only climbing solo.  It has huge advantages, including being able to skip a day if I'm not feeling great, start/end the day whenever I want, go to areas without having to talk someone else into it, etc.  But you are completely right that I would benefit immensely from climbing with a partner.  Of course right now my climbing days are all over the place on my schedule, and a lot of people don't have the summer off and have to work.

But yeah... partners would be good. :)

Your strength day (hangboard AND bouldering) together doesn't make much sense. If you do a real hangboard workout, you can't touch limit bouldering. If you boulder hard, you can't do a proper hangboard workout. I am not sure exactly what you do for those, I'm assuming some kind of repeaters or max hangs for hangboard, and what for bouldering?

Since it sounds like you are trying to mix things up, instead of doing periodization, I would put the dedicated hangboard day before the volume day outside, and keep it at once a week. I don't think you would need a rest day between hangboard and volume day, you can do hangboard in the evening, and head out for your volume day the next morning.

And then I would keep your outdoor climbing as is, and do a mini-periodization by focusing your indoor bouldering (BOTH days) on power only for about 4 weeks, before going to SE/PE circuits for both bouldering days for 3-4 weeks.  

Again, the nitty-gritty details matter. I don't know what you do, and I am not implying that you are wrong in your classification of strength days or circuit days. But I had a friend who talked big training game. What her bouldering circuits looked like, in reality: come to the gym with her med school study books. Spend 30 min chatting with people. "Warm up" by climbing couple V0-. Study for half hour. Chat with people. Do a 10 min traverse, study for 30 min. Chat. Attempt to do the first round of up-down climbing LBC. Fall on the second up climbing. Complain that she was out of shape. Chat with people. Complain that she needed to study. Try to do another LBC. Fall off on the second problem. Chat. Go home.

She seriously thought that she was doing LBCs... She just wasn't in shape to really do them, you know? Otherwise, she was TOTALLY doing them.

Lena chita wrote:

Your strength day (hangboard AND bouldering) together doesn't make much sense. If you do a real hangboard workout, you can't touch limit bouldering. If you boulder hard, you can't do a proper hangboard workout. I am not sure exactly what you do for those, I'm assuming some kind of repeaters or max hangs for hangboard, and what for bouldering?

Lena: I hired a coach, and he has me doing various bouldering workouts, which change now-and-then.  Currently I'm doing "3 try max" times 6 boulders, in the V4-V6 range.  Then I do max hangs (half crimp, open hand, and a wide pinch), 3x for each grip at 10secs per hang, at 85% of my max weight.  Also there's a bunch of other stuff in there (core, flexibility, shoulder work, etc)

Since it sounds like you are trying to mix things up, instead of doing periodization, I would put the dedicated hangboard day before the volume day outside, and keep it at once a week. I don't think you would need a rest day between hangboard and volume day, you can do hangboard in the evening, and head out for your volume day the next morning.

That makes sense since hangboarding (especially at the rate I'm currently doing it: 90 sec TUT) isn't much volume.  I'll ask my coach about this when I meet with him.

And then I would keep your outdoor climbing as is, and do a mini-periodization by focusing your indoor bouldering (BOTH days) on power only for about 4 weeks, before going to SE/PE circuits for both bouldering days for 3-4 weeks.  

Interesting.  I wonder if this increase in intensity might be risky though, since my current SE/PE day is by-far the easiest on my body and the strength day is hardest and leaves me pretty sore.  Perhaps moving the hangboarding would help ameliorate this to some extent.

My coach is a Bechtel fan, so he's mostly following that book, with his own variations.  He wants me to do 3 weeks hard, then 1 week deload, and then every few months stop training and just climb for a month, then repeat.

Again, the nitty-gritty details matter. I don't know what you do, and I am not implying that you are wrong in your classification of strength days or circuit days. But I had a friend who talked big training game. What her bouldering circuits looked like, in reality: come to the gym with her med school study books. Spend 30 min chatting with people. "Warm up" by climbing couple V0-. Study for half hour. Chat with people. Do a 10 min traverse, study for 30 min. Chat. Attempt to do the first round of up-down climbing LBC. Fall on the second up climbing. Complain that she was out of shape. Chat with people. Complain that she needed to study. Try to do another LBC. Fall off on the second problem. Chat. Go home.

She seriously thought that she was doing LBCs... She just wasn't in shape to really do them, you know? Otherwise, she was TOTALLY doing them.

Lol... that's one problem I never have: talking too much.  I don't know anyone at my gym and I go there with a pretty short window to get everything done and get out.  If anything I'm too rigid in my training, always trying to follow my plan to the letter, even when I should stop because something hurts or I'm having a bad day.

Anyway, I just started with this coach in April and I think he's great, so I'm going to see how things go through the summer.  I truly appreciate the feedback Lena!  Some good ideas to talk to him next time we meet.

Seek good partners, you might be surprised how motivated/inspired you can get if you hang out with the right people. You will learn from each other, and lots of experiences in climbing are better shared. Shouldn't be hard if you live in Boulder, you should even have the privilege of being pretty selective, given the number of climbers there. Please don't skip the "d" grades, that clearly makes you a grade-chasing _____. They are graded that way for a reason, the sandbag thing is mostly mental for people (I probably went too far with this, onsighting several 11d's before even trying 12a...) If you are onsighting 11a/b and doing 11b/c 2nd or 3rd try, then definitely go for a 12a, but realize that route selection becomes more important if climbing at your limit. Personally, I favor endurance over raw bouldering power, so I have little chance at a short, 5-bolt route at my maximum grade, but a long route with multiple cruxes and sustained climbing will suit me well, even if it seems more intimidating. If you are climbing on a project, try to focus on having fun and learning. Once you send, it may seem like it is over too soon. Good luck!

I'm your age, but have been climbing almost non-stop for 35 years.  My $0.02 is A)  you are training too much, and resting too little.  I'm projecting and sending 'easy' 5.13s.  I climb outside one weekend day, 1/2 a mid-week day, and train on plastic one mid-week day; so like 1/2 what your are doing.  Any more and its too much for me.  B) climb with some one, outside, who climbs 5.12 using good technique.  Once I incorporated better technique and tricks (aka drop knees), my climbing harder grades solidified (Thanks Molly!).  Sorry about the spray, but point is, for me, rest days are just as important, take it from another old guy.

snowdenroad wrote: I'm your age, but have been climbing almost non-stop for 35 years.  My $0.02 is A)  you are training too much, and resting too little.  I'm projecting and sending 'easy' 5.13s.  I climb outside one weekend day, 1/2 a mid-week day, and train on plastic one mid-week day; so like 1/2 what your are doing.  Any more and its too much for me.  B) climb with some one, outside, who climbs 5.12 using good technique.  Once I incorporated better technique and tricks (aka drop knees), my climbing harder grades solidified (Thanks Molly!).  Sorry about the spray, but point is, for me, rest days are just as important, take it from another old guy.

Interesting.  Do you think you are improving, maintaining, or declining with this training/climbing schedule you have?!  I would definitely worry on your 2.5 days/week schedule that it wouldn't be enough stimulus for me to improve.  But you've been climbing wayyyy longer than I have! 

I would love to climb outside with someone who climbs 5.12, but no luck so far.  When I started back in late 2016, I was hiring a guide about once a month... a really great guy who also climbs 5.14, and he'd hike my 5.11 projects with good technique that I could emulate.  But my consulting work has died down and I can't really afford to keep doing that. Other attempts to find (older male) partners who climb 5.12 haven't gone anywhere.

I've told my coach that I need to find a strong partner, but surprisingly he thinks it's unnecessary: he thinks that the flexibility I get from soloing is worth it, and he also thinks that copying someone else's beta would stunt my development... he wants me to work out beta on my own, insisting that I'll get better faster that way.  I'm skeptical... I've had to give up on climbs that I thought were too hard for me until I saw someone else do them, and then magically I could send the thing using stolen beta. :)

NateB wrote: Too Funny - I climbed Serenity to Son's with you - like 20 frik'n years ago!

I climb at BRC on Tu, Th AM - but sporadically these days as I'm super busy and also recovering from surgery.

Reads to me that you're already strong enough for 5.13 if you can do occasional honest V6.  Done.  Now get a belay and go get on 5.12 routes until you manage to send one - there's really no substitute.

Holy crap... Nate!!

I totally remember you.  You were already crushing hard back in the 90's, and a super nice person to boot.

Here's that Serenity/Son's... epic buttshot of you on the first pitch, Fall 1998:

No idea you still climbed, let alone moved to Boulder.  I've lost track of everyone from bitd.  Sorry to hear about your surgery. :/

reboot wrote:

Well of course, how else is he going to milk a repeated client :) There's a difference between (macro) beta and micro technique adjustment. There is a lot of value to working out the former as it's more problem solving, but the latter you absolutely do learn a lot of from better climbers (provided you develop the eyes for it). 

This is really useful.  I suppose I can't glean this kind of "micro beta" from watching videos of good climbers on routes I'm not doing? :)

For the 5.12 in the OP, there are two youtube videos of people climbing it, but I can't use either of their beta.  And one of the vids shows only snippets of the climb, and he's soloing.  So yeah... I have to figure things out myself. :)

John RB wrote:

 Other attempts to find (older male) partners who climb 5.12 haven't gone anywhere.

1. Why do they have to be old? If I lived in Boulder I would gladly go project sport routes with you, and I am in my early thirties.

2. I would be a significantly worse climber if I did all of my projecting in a vacuum (solo).  Trying something with a partner is more fun, more motivating, and iteratively working out beta with a partner is usually more effective. This, implementing the pyramid concept, and perhaps a little over-training may be your main problems here.

John RB wrote: Other attempts to find (older male) partners who climb 5.12 haven't gone anywhere.

IIRC you climb in a gym, but stay asocial. Socialize. Nobody is going to judge you, you'll be able to develop belayshinships. 

P.S. If you go shirtless, people WILL judge you. So, don't.