Quad anchor masterpoints

John Wilder wrote:

Why would you re-tie? And why would not re-tying force an awkward position for belaying? 

If the bolts are at different heights, the master point will be off to one side. Or if the bolts are really low in relation to the ledge you're standing on, you might want to be off to one side. Or if there are a bunch of people on the ledge.

Try it yourself. I don't see any safety issues with it, so if it works for you, great. I had enough problems that I went back to the quad. Having the flexibility of a wider master point which gives you some wiggle room solved those problems.

David Kerkeslager wrote: It's not a multi-purpose tool--it's a fast way to make an anchor when you have bolts. If there aren't bolted anchors, the quad is useless. And if only some of your anchors are bolted, the speed gain has to be weighed against having to carry two anchor setups (the quad and the cordelette).

As someone else mentioned before, the quad can be used in other applications.  A quad can be used very effectively on a three piece anchor (or even a four piece anchor, given a long enough piece of cord and pieces that aren't spaced to far apart).  It's a very slick setup, indeed, and doesn't take any longer.  You wouldn't have it pre-rigged in this situation, but it's just another option that improves equalization.

John Wilder wrote:

You can leave your 48" sling pre-tied cordlette style and achieve the same result with less bulk.

What do you mean when you say a sling tied "cordelette style?"

My quad, is a dyneema mini-quad. It takes up the same amount of space as one of my alpine draws and could, in fact, double for one in a pinch. I tend to tie in with the rope when building my own anchors and like the immediacy of the quad on bolted ones. I used to carry a cordellete (16-foot length of 7mm cord) but it took up way too much space and I found myself not really needing it once I learned how to properly tie in with the rope. 

I'm always game to learn something new, though. 

Jared Moore wrote: As someone else mentioned before, the quad can be used in other applications.  A quad can be used very effectively on a three piece anchor (or even a four piece anchor, given a long enough piece of cord and pieces that aren't spaced to far apart).  It's a very slick setup, indeed, and doesn't take any longer.  You wouldn't have it pre-rigged in this situation, but it's just another option that improves equalization.

Sure, a long sling can be used everywhere a cordalette can, but I just don't see the point of using it for those applications when the rope works just as well or better. As far as I'm concerned, not having it prerigged defeats the entire purpose.

Also, I don't think when people say "quad", they're talking about a long sling. They're usually talking about the long sling tied in the specific quad configuration (fold the sling in half, tie two overhands in the folded sling).

Señor Arroz wrote: 

What do you mean when you say a sling tied "cordelette style?"

I took this to mean the result you get when you do the following:

1. Clip the sling to two bolts which are at the same height.
2. Pull both strands down at the center to create a "bight" on both strands.
3. Tie an overhand on the "bight"s to create a master point.
4. Unclip, and you've got your sling tied cordelette style.

I use the 120cm Mammut Magic sling as a pre-tied quad as it has a few advantages:

Way more durable over time than Dyneema or 6mm cord.

Way easier to tie & untie.

Loses very little strength from knotting (vs Dyneema) and vs. accessory cord (when wet).

Works quite well as an lanyard and extended rappel as knotted.

patto wrote:
You know what just occurred to me...  Ever since John Long did his flawed testing and updated his book with the 'quad' setup.  I've been seeing it written about for years.

I have yet to see anybody actually use one in climbing or have one on their rack...

David Kerkeslager wrote: 

I only carry one if I know there will be bolted anchors, but I do carry one sometimes.

I have been forever traumatized by people carrying quads...

Story: We were climbing at the Long Wall at Summersiville lake, just finishing the warm-up, when a group walked in, wanting to climb the route I was about to climb/clean. In my attempt to be courteous, I offered to put their draws on the anchors, when I cleaned mine, to speed up the cleaning process a bit. They brightened up, and said, oh would you? Oh, maybe you could climb on our rope and set up TR for us? Would you mind? Not seeing a problem, I agreed.

Oh, you are so kind...   here is our rope... and the quad...

They produced this giant monstrosity, tied out of ~11mm static line, doubled up, with gigantic industrial sized MSA steel 'biners (calling them "biners somehow makes them sound more manageable... no, they were CARABINERS, with capital everything). I only namaged a weak mumbling along the lines of, "but... have you considered just using draws?" and was told earnestly that quads were MUCH SAFER.

I didn't feel like I could politely back out of doing the thing I had agreed to do, they were so nice, and earnest, and sooo noobish... So I did my best to clip/wrap/clip 10 lb of cord and steel around my waist, told myself that it was good-for-me weight training, and went up. I had bruises on my thighs for weeks where couple of the unclipped steel biners hit me on the way up.

Well a 120cm sling tied as one would tie a quad makes for really fast transitions, particularly at bolted or ice screw belays, and a much cleaner set up for master points, as in each partner has a lot of room.

Michael Schneider wrote:

+1, I'm 80/15 . . . 5% unresolved(Un-Gld'D

In rare cases, It is a redundancy that would have saved a few lives for sure. so of course, an obvious, place to add redundancy.   knowing before hand, that it might be an issue with newer climbers, who expect to see a mini quad at least..

 When  in the canyons & woods what seems overkill, adds wear resistance, there's no good reason not to,

 so as hard as it has been, (ie:not very hard)

and wanting to avoid the junk-show  dangling off me,

 I've started to carry,    `A Pre-Tied Mini Quad,  

 

1980s photo

The only time I use a quad is when climbing top rope and the bolts are accommodating.

Multi-pitch, the rope is used. It keeps the unnecessary out of the equation.

When I first started climbing I brought along all types of doodad and trinket, but learned a lot of it is not needed.

The quad works well and most definitely has a place, but...

When you forget to bring, drop, lose, or otherwise don't have your secret weapon you will have to figure out another way.

Use what you want, but be prepared to get through without... it happens, so be adaptable and understand other techniques. It can lighten your rack/pack and possibly save your life.

If you are new to climbing anchors and techniques you should make sure you understand the why you are using this and doing that.

Clipping two or clipping three... just make sure you have redundancy. 

I'm glad we aren't talking about the sliding x.

Lena chita wrote:
I have been forever traumatized by people carrying quads...

When you get a quad from someone...

After hearing about the quad...

Hobo Greg wrote:

When block leading/one person leading all the pitches, a rope anchor is ineffective.

Huh?

Assuming party of 2 and 2 point anchor as many hear are talking about 2 bolt anchors:

Leader clips one bolt with rope, then the other.  Then, belays.
Follower arrives at belay, clips one bolt, then the other (under the leader's biners).
4 steps.  4 biners.  No other gear needed.  Why is this hard?

I haven't seen anyone explain a key benefit to the quad...

In a multipitch situation, unlike a single master point, pull on the quad from one person/direction doesn't really effect the other person. If you're belaying in guide mode, have a nice stance, the weight of the second (especially when falling) won't tug on the leader. This is particularly beneficial when you're hanging and the 2nd's rope comes in from an angle creating a separate pull.

Then, with both people at the anchor (especially at awkward or hanging belays), it's MUCH more mellow to move around independently and not tug on your partner. You also get the benefits of a well-distributed anchor. Who hasn't tied a cordelette not perfectly in line with the direction of pull?

Some other benefits:

• Wicked fast on bolt anchors. Use a mini-quad for low bulk and drama. There is NO reason that a bundled up mini-quad has to be bulkier or ridiculous on your harness. You can also use a standard-length cordelette and shorten it with an overhand knot, but you will end up with some slack dangling. 
• Quadruple length slings are awesome for quads. I frequently use a BD dyneema for a quad, both sport and trad (tie in with the rope is mandatory of course)
• In trad situations, a 3 point quad is fantastic. I use this frequently. Sometimes I'll even use a pre-tied mini quad on a magic x to equalize 2 of the pieces, and the 3rd piece as the 2nd point for the quad. This sounds way more complicated than it is.
• Check out The Mountain Guide Manual by Coppolillo and Chauvin for a through explanation of the quad! Good pics.

Here's a pic of the 3 point quad from a Rock and Ice article. It's quick to tie once you've done it a couple of times.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I took this to mean the result you get when you do the following:

1. Clip the sling to two bolts which are at the same height.
2. Pull both strands down at the center to create a "bight" on both strands.
3. Tie an overhand on the "bight"s to create a master point.
4. Unclip, and you've got your sling tied cordelette style.

Thanks!

Hobo Greg wrote:

Huh?

The followers end would be on top, necessitating a flip of the stack, no problem with a quad, but for a rope anchor, you either need to rebuild it or untie and swap ends. Unless you have some other magical way of using a rope anchor when the leader of the last pitch is also leading the next pitch..

Huh?  When leading blocks, one always needs to flip the stack of rope.  Just flip the stack.  Type of anchor is irrelevant.  This talk of needing to rebuild the anchor is nonsense.

Ryan Swanson wrote:

However, that's building two anchors at every belay.

Clipping yourself to 2 bolts is not what I would call building and anchor.  It is almost exactly the same amount of steps as a quad.  But, you don't need a quad.  

If you are climbing a route with bolted anchors, why not carry a pre-tied quad with biners already set up? You arrive at the bolted anchor and have a quick redundant set up ready to go.

Definitely a go to for any bolted anchor top roping as well. Redundant, directional and simple.

Hobo Greg wrote:

We must not be talking about the same thing.. because when I build a rope anchor, it goes from me, cloved to a piece, looped down to form a master point, and cloved up to another piece. If I then bring up the second and want to lead the next pitch, how would I do so without having them either build their own anchor or untie and swap ends? Because again, my end is going directly to a piece.

You must not have read my first post.  It is a 2 bolt anchor.  When your second arrives, he simply clips to one bolt, then the other, under your biners.  Anchor done.  

Time saving does not come from what type of anchor you use. It’s your ability to build a solid anchor in an efficient manner.  Personally I don’t see the advantage to the quad verse just using the rope or bunny ears. To the OP question,

Clipping 3 eliminates the ADT and creates redundancy. 
Clipping three is solid if you’re worried about failure of even one strand you’re doing something so wrong that it will be the least of your concerns

The problem with stacking leads and the quad is that you will need at least two, might as well use the rope flip and go or use bunny ears. There’s just not any significant benefit. 

For all this "efficiency" for "leading in blocks" you would think that anyone attempting NIAD or a speed ascent would always carry quads....but they almost never do, do they?

Maybe they just know what they are doing.