stopper only climbing

ViperScale . wrote:

Yea you are talking about newton’s third law. But I guess we are talking about 2 different types of forces here one like in newton's third law is just a counter force (depends on the fall force, higher the fall force higher the counter force) to hold against something pushing on it. Passive placements only have fall force put on them (well gravity too), no other force other than rock counter force is exerted. When we are talking about active placements we are talking about fall force + some other directional force that is not a counter force holding the piece in place.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

No dude, swing and a miss by a mile. Nowhere does it make them bad people...it makes them bad posters, that 'jack every thread with their BS.

All it was, was asking the thread to stay on topic instead of more and more and more and more mental masturbation by the same people in thread after thread after thread and for them to go make their own stories, instead of squabbling on the internet over a vector diagram in a thread hijack.

Just because you don't enjoy the conversation they were having doesn't mean its mental masturbation. Generally speaking, threads don't stay on topic, as a rule. Just because you don't share the same interest in physics as they do doesn't mean they discussion of it is wrong or bad. 

You can subtract from discussion on here, you can only add to them. You can't make people stop discussing what you don't want to discuss. But you can try to start a new thread about something you want to discuss. If you think otherwise, you're setting yourself up for failure and frustration and only doing yourself a disservice.

eli poss wrote:

Just because you don't enjoy the conversation they were having doesn't mean its mental masturbation. Generally speaking, threads don't stay on topic, as a rule. Just because you don't share the same interest in physics as they do doesn't mean they discussion of it is wrong or bad. 

You can subtract from discussion on here, you can only add to them. You can't make people stop discussing what you don't want to discuss. But you can try to start a new thread about something you want to discuss. If you think otherwise, you're setting yourself up for failure and frustration and only doing yourself a disservice.

LOL.

So full of LOL.

If you had any idea how kind I am being to you right now...

MP suffers from a plethora of bad posters that think they "know" something about climbing when they haven't climbed....**anything**.

When they have climbed something they will look at these posts and lol at the person who was themselves.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

LOL.

So full of LOL.

If you had any idea how kind I am being to you right now...

MP suffers from a plethora of bad posters that think they "know" something about climbing when they haven't climbed....**anything**.

When they have climbed something they will look at these posts and lol at the person who was themselves.

I assume you're referring to me as one of the "plethora" of bad poster. I've climbed many things, and I know many things about climbing. Perhaps you and others know more, and I'd be happy to learn more. But I'm sorry you feel the need or desire to put down others that are different from you, or perhaps "lesser" than you.

Not staying on topic is a feature of every message board I've participated in and has nothing to do with MP in particular.  Sometimes the discussion wanders unproductively and sometimes it wanders productively, but wandering is just about guaranteed.  Moreover, complaining about wandering just starts a new subthread and so is just a much a part of the wandering tendencies as anything started by the initial wanderers.

Personally, I've contributed a lot to what I hope is productive wandering---but is certainly wandering nonetheless.  Some times the original post and/or the discussion following it raises more interesting issues than were present at the outset, and in that case it has always seemed to me to be worth branching out.

If one feels the need to get a discussion back on track, the best thing to attempt is to post something that addresses the original question or the on-topic responses to the original question, rather than railing at those who have departed from the opening theme.  But be forewarned that once released into the wild, a thread's gonna do what its gonna do.

Folks might consider walking around a base and trying all these more advanced stacking and opposing configurations and report back on real-world testing...

eli poss wrote:

I assume you're referring to me as one of the "plethora" of bad poster. I've climbed many things, and I know many things about climbing. Perhaps you and others know more, and I'd be happy to learn more. But I'm sorry you feel the need or desire to put down others that are different from you, or perhaps "lesser" than you.

No dude, you have got it exactly backwards. It has nothing to do with any "worth" of individuals. 

But it has everything to do with the worth of one's posts. They aren't the same.

You get slack for being young and really enthusiastic, and you know a few technical tidbits that you can regurgitate.

If you had really climbed something significant you would know exactly what people like me are talking about.

After you have really climbed something, you would come back to a thread like this and say: "You were right. I get it now...."

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

No dude, you have got it exactly backwards. It has nothing to do with any "worth" of individuals. 

But it has everything to do with the worth of one's posts. They aren't the same.

You get slack for being young and really enthusiastic, and you know a few technical tidbits that you can regurgitate.

If you had really climbed something significant you would know exactly what people like me are talking about.

After you have really climbed something, you would come back to a thread like this and say: "You were right. I get it now...."

Ok...I'll bite...in the interest of getting the thread back on track, what reaches the mark of 'significant'?  Other than the valley classic you made the FFA of, anything else you have done reach that level?  Honest question, and maybe a good way to get some worthy posts going.  Maybe something all on stoppers to match the thread topic?

To be clear, I will never climb anything significant in my book...too weak, bad knee, too much desk jockeying to do... but a girl likes to dream, you know...

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

No dude, you have got it exactly backwards. It has nothing to do with any "worth" of individuals. 

But it has everything to do with the worth of one's posts. They aren't the same.

You get slack for being young and really enthusiastic, and you know a few technical tidbits that you can regurgitate.

If you had really climbed something significant you would know exactly what people like me are talking about.

After you have really climbed something, you would come back to a thread like this and say: "You were right. I get it now...."

It's been a long time since I had the opportunity to climb something "significant". I'm limited to the terrain accessible in the Durango area and the Chattanooga area, and the biggest technical climbs there top out at 8-10 pitches max. I've climbed a 1200' route in a party of 3 in under 5 hours. No I haven't climbed any big walls and no I don't lead above 5.10, but if that makes everything I've climbed "insignificant", then your opinion means less than I initially hoped for.

With the amount of experience you've had, you have enormous potential to help others learn and grow as climbers, something that is very much needed in the current climbing world as demand far outweighs the supply of quality teachers and mentors. But from what I've seen, you've thrown that all away. I hope there's a lot that I'm not seeing. 

We should start a new thread on the Physix of Climbing... there is lots of good stuff to yap about there since all climbers are subject to the fate of Newton's apple... But I digress lets not hijack the OP's thread and get back to the discussion at hand:

Yes climbing with Nuts only is very useful.. you learn more about how placements work and it makes ones cam placements better too...

David Kerkeslager wrote:

this works I use it all the time.. in different orientations. Particularly if I need a placement where I need a directional because the route did a sudden turn. It also protects the second quite nicely as well.
 

Healyje ·
Folks might consider walking around a base and trying all these more advanced stacking and opposing configurations and report back on real-world testing...

I agree, play with stacking and opposed configurations in controlled setting. Then use them when you feel comfortable doing so. I do that anytime I get a new piece of gear to understand how it works. The wonderful thing about traditional style climbing is you have to use the muscle between your ears as well. the more tools you have in your quiver the better you will be at coping with a wider range of scenarios

Xam wrote:

Ok...I'll bite...in the interest of getting the thread back on track, what reaches the mark of 'significant'?  Other than the valley classic you made the FFA of, anything else you have done reach that level?  Honest question, and maybe a good way to get some worthy posts going.  Maybe something all on stoppers to match the thread topic?

To be clear, I will never climb anything significant in my book...too weak, bad knee, too much desk jockeying to do... but a girl likes to dream, you know...

The point is personally significant as in a truly serious undertaking like an Alpine Wall for multiple days or real Big Wall or a serious free climbing test piece (run out, committing and challenging) that makes you did deep. Not just some misadventure, but something truly serious that you go into with your eyes open and physically prepared. If its the real deal you come out a changed person.

I think a detailed climbing resume would be off topic, but I did my first El Cap route at 17 (The Shield via Magic Mushroom) in 1979 pre-cams. ~90 pins and hexes and stoppers. South Face of Washington Column with maybe 2 pins and the rest hexes and stoppers etc in 1978. All my first leads up to 5.10 were on stoppers and hexes (or Titons lol). Its just how it was done in those days.

An entire generation of Free Climbers only climbed on stoppers and hexes for a decade or more. The idea that this is somehow out of the ordinary and that some in this thread can't imagine the concept of climbing without cams is indicative of the lack of experience around here.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ...
An entire generation of Free Climbers only climbed on stoppers and hexes for a decade or more. The idea that this is somehow out of the ordinary and that some in this thread can't imagine the concept of climbing without cams is indicative of the lack of experience around here.

Here Here... actually I would call it two generations..ok, generation and half.  When Cams first came out.. who could afford them... and when I did save up enough and have my first set of Friends (just three sizes;1,2,3)  they were not the first thing placed... A nut was always first considered.. to save the cams for that spot where a nut wouldn't go...

I keep pushing for an annual 'National Cam-Free Day' when folks could give passive a real whirl and maybe even hit up some classic routes from the '70s which were put up sans cams (or sticky rubber and lite gear). But damned if it just hasn't been getting any traction...

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:
The point is personally significant as in a truly serious undertaking like an Alpine Wall for multiple days or real Big Wall or a serioveus free climbing test piece (run out, committing and challenging) that makes you did deep. Not just some misadventure, but something truly serious that you go into with your eyes open and physically prepared. If its the real deal you come out a changed person.

I think a detailed climbing resume would be off topic, but I did my first El Cap route at 17 (The Shield via Magic Mushroom) in 1979 pre-cams. ~90 pins and hexes and stoppers. South Face of Washington Column with maybe 2 pins and the rest hexes and stoppers etc in 1978. Its just how it was done in those days.

An entire generation of Free Climbers only climbed on stoppers and hexes for a decade or more. The idea that this is somehow out of the ordinary and that some in this thread can't imagine the concept of climbing without cams is indicative of the lack of experience around here.

That's great...I am certainly on board with a climb at your physical and mental limits being a personal transformative experience.  But maybe stop painting with such a broad brush? It certainly limits the conversation a bit. I certainly have done my share of cam-free climbing and, while I haven't done any nail-ups, can appreciate the artistry.  Just because I also know a little physics and engineering does not mean that is the limit of my experience. Just a thought...consider it and I will aim to never posting another free body diagram on MP.

"Cam Free Day"! Ha.!. I think people should be required to climb with lugged boots, Gold Line and body belays.. in the True Classic Style! ... My groin is aching just in anticipation of a Dulfersitz rappel! Well there I go taking the thread off topic again...  

rgold wrote: Not staying on topic is a feature of every message board I've participated in and has nothing to do with MP in particular.  Sometimes the discussion wanders unproductively and sometimes it wanders productively, but wandering is just about guaranteed.  Moreover, complaining about wandering just starts a new subthread and so is just a much a part of the wandering tendencies as anything started by the initial wanderers.

Personally, I've contributed a lot to what I hope is productive wandering---but is certainly wandering nonetheless.  Some times the original post and/or the discussion following it raises more interesting issues than were present at the outset, and in that case it has always seemed to me to be worth branching out.

If one feels the need to get a discussion back on track, the best thing to attempt is to post something that addresses the original question or the on-topic responses to the original question, rather than railing at those who have departed from the opening theme.  But be forewarned that once released into the wild, a thread's gonna do what its gonna do.

rgold.

Posting GOLD about internet forums and not just climbing!  :-D

Xam wrote:

That's great...I am certainly on board with a climb at your physical and mental limits being a personal transformative experience.  But maybe stop painting with such a broad brush? It certainly limits the conversation a bit. I certainly have done my share of cam-free climbing and, while I haven't done any nail-ups, can appreciate the artistry.  Just because I also know a little physics and engineering does not mean that is the limit of my experience. Just a thought...consider it and I will aim to never posting another free body diagram on MP.

There is nothing wrong either with a technical discussion about climbing gear, in a thread about the gear. And all of us are guilty of going off in a tangent that floats our boat.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

And there you have it. A 21yo that hasn't climbed or done anything in life who thinks someone/anyone should care what he perceives.

I couldn't sum up what is wrong with this site any better.

Oh, look, Tut putting down another climber. Resorting to personal attacks. What a shock.