Survey on sexual harassment and sexual assault in climbing

I seriously wonder how some of you can have the gall to post in the women's forum questioning the legitimacy of women's trauma and think it completely okay that you can't do a simple google search before saying this.

Literally from the website ptsd.va.gov: "PTSD (posttraumatic stress disorder) is a mental health problem that some people develop after experiencing or witnessing a life-threatening event, like combat, a natural disaster, a car accident, or sexual assault."

Bolded text added for emphasis. Exasperation!

señdera la reina wrote:

Yes you see it is not hard to find the truth.  Sexual harassment causes four times more PTSD than war does.

Intentional language! No, not four times more PTSD than war; four times more likely for women soldiers to get PTSD!

I think I'm getting PTSD from this thread.

Nate Tastic wrote:

If you keep trying to shut down conversation and keep wanting men to be removed from this forum then don't expect anyone to have a chance to learn anything new. I've learned something new in this thread. I've also learned some people have a skewed perspective on things and I'm not the only one who thought that (other people thought the same.) At the same time, I've also asked to have my own perspective challenged on things too (looking into PTSD as it relates to sexual harassment as we speak.) None of this would have happened if I wasn't allowed here. But you go ahead and stay up there on that horse of yours.

Simple, honest question... why did it require you to come into the women's forum and have your incorrect assumption challenged before you did that work for yourself?

Nate Ball wrote:

Intentional language! No, not four times more PTSD than war; four times more likely for women soldiers to get PTSD!

Women soldiers do not get PTSD more than men. Are you saying women are not strong enough to be soldiers? 

Whoa. This thread has blown up quite a bit since I left it to go ski mountaineering for a week or so. I've been impressed by the generally civil discourse occurring, and I'd like to encourage continued respectful and productive conversation. I can't speak to the deletion of Frank's comments as I didn't see any of them prior to that deletion.

I've edited the OP to include relevant downthread information about methodological concerns, definitions of rape and PTSD, incidence of sexual assault/harassment, incidence of PTSD among sexual assault survivors, etc.

I don't know that there's much I could add beyond what's already been articulated with patience, tact, and poise by the likes of wonderwoman, Em Cos, Lena chita, and Old Lady H. I'm happy to let the women speak their truth here unless I'm directly asked to participate.

señdera la reina wrote:

Women soldiers do not get PTSD more than men.  Are you saying women are not strong enough to be soldiers?

Your statement was that sexual assault causes four times more PTSD than war, whereas the article says "women in the military who are sexually harassed are up to four times as likely to develop PTSD as women exposed to a traumatic event in combat". This is an important distinction, which is what I mean by "intentional language." I'm not even going to acknowledge your question.

Mason Stone wrote: Wonderwoman,
Please qualify what you are calling PTSD, do you mean from having served in a military theatre of conflict?

PTSD means Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.  It is not limited to military application.  It is an actual disorder recognized by the American Psychiatric Association, among other health organizations.

Nate Ball wrote:

Your statement was that sexual assault causes four times more PTSD than war, whereas the article says "women in the military who are sexually harassed are up to four times as likely to develop PTSD as women exposed to a traumatic event in combat". This is an important distinction, which is what I mean by "intentional language." I'm not even going to acknowledge your question.

I don't know what you mean by intentional language and repeating those words do not other things you say more clear.

There are many more women that are sexually harassed than people who are exposed to a traumatic event in combat.   Most people never see war but all women see harassment.  That means it is true that sexual harassment causes more PTSD than war.  There is no other way to see that.  You can ignore these problems but it does not change this fact.

Nate Ball wrote:

Your statement was that sexual assault causes four times more PTSD than war, whereas the article says "women in the military who are sexually harassed are up to four times as likely to develop PTSD as women exposed to a traumatic event in combat". This is an important distinction, which is what I mean by "intentional language." I'm not even going to acknowledge your question.

Nate, do not engage.  I think it's a fake profile trying to stir up trouble by intentionally misquoting and misinterpreting things.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

Nate, do not engage.  I think it's a fake profile trying to stir up trouble by intentionally misquoting and misinterpreting things.

It is not misquoting or misinterpreting.  This is what you said.

""women in the military who are sexually harassed are up to four times as likely to develop PTSD as women exposed to a traumatic event in combat, according to a 2009 study in the journal Law and Human Behavior."

If this is misinterpreting then you tell me how it is possible sexual harassment does not cause more PTSD.  People are always so focused on veterans and their struggle but there are so many more more women with the same struggle and they are ignored.

Male and female veterans do not have statistically significantly different rates of PTSD:
https://www.research.va.gov/currents/0815-9.cfm

Sexual harassment is correlated with negative mental health outcomes (R -0.25) including PTSD and it appears sexual harassment may now also meet diagnostic criterion A for PTSD depending on the affected individual's perceptions and responses to harassment:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1744-6570.2007.00067.x 

Rate of PTSD among veterans is 11-20% for recent conflicts; 7-8% for the general population. https://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/ptsd-overview/basics/how-common-is-ptsd.asp 
Military and veterans account for roughly 7% of the U.S. population. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-percentage-of-americans-have-served-in-the-military/
In absolute terms, it seems plausible that cases of PTSD caused by sexual assault and/or sexual harassment could be greater than cases caused by combat as 10% x 7% = 0.7% and 0.7% < 7-8%. Even if that 7-8% includes combat veterans with PTSD, the absolute number of cases from non-combat causes would be greater. However, I haven't been able to find good info on the relative rates of PTSD by cause, so I'm not sure it's possible to say if more PTSD is cause by sexual assault or sexual harassment than combat trauma.

Mason Stone wrote: Thanks Derek and All,
The collective wisdom could be accessed to help us all make the site and world better, but only if we work together. Example, we recognize we are racist, classist and sexist, isms on and on, and we do something about it, my formula for success, catch myself when I behave in the above mentioned ways or when someone points it out and call it out or name the issue if you will when I witness it. We gain nothing by ignoring issues. Or by responding in anger. butterfly effects are possible. but they have to be reasoned collectively, how else can anyone know if what they say or do is a kindness or an assault?

Good point.  I was raised in a racist, sexist household.  As much as we would like to think it's not the case, we can't escape our history.  I find myself thinking in ways that do not reflect my real feeling thanks to that upbringing.  I remind myself that it's unacceptable and be aware that it exists.  Ever vigilant; that's my mantra.

By saying "50% of the population", most of us will assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you are implying all ​women.

"Shell shock" is the predecessor of PTSD, and was coined in WWI, I believe. Up until recently, when PTSD became a formal diagnosis, you were expected to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "soldier on".

PTSD is indeed something none of us is immune to, and, undiagnosed and unsupported, is frankly often the underlying issue for alcoholism and the destruction that wreaks on all concerned.

In the general population, the group largest at risk are our emergency responders, no surprise there. More than a few departments around the country have had more suicides in their ranks than the norm, and other problems as well. But, the don't talk about it and "soldier on" attitude still lingers.....and good people suffer needlessly as a result.

Semantic bickering, while perhaps forwarding conversations, is still a hazard to joint compassion for the actual suffering we all should aim to understand and alleviate.

Another huge population this discussion is forgetting? Even more vulnerable than women? Our children. That's where the gender barriers totally fall away, for victims and perpetrators both, of abuse and violence, sexual and otherwise. A hideous and awful legacy.

Best, Helen

JSH wrote: If you're curious about how growing up and living in a patriarchal society may have shaped you in ways you aren't aware of, this is the very best resource:
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

It does not test for implicit bias towards race, but I imagine its results are similar.

if you're curious about which sex actually pushed the hardest to create these conditions where women (and some men) now try and frame society as "patriarchal"  ....

start here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5O_FLUWYmg

food for thought.   the initial reasons were FULL of bias. (and if you try and dismiss this video as "mansplaining" then hooooly shit, cya)

every time I hear "this problem affects women MORE than men" i just laugh. then I cry.

how many rapists come from totally stable homes???

J Squared wrote:

if you're curious about which sex actually pushed the hardest to create these conditions where women (and some men) now try and frame society as "patriarchal"  ....

start here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5O_FLUWYmg

food for thought.   the initial reasons were FULL of bias.

every time I hear "this problem affects women MORE than men" i just laugh. then I cry.

how many rapists come from totally stable homes???

This is for all of us to work on. I recognized almost while I was being raped, that I was still far better off than that guy. I admit I would have killed him in that instant, if I had the means, but the forgiveness did come, eventually.

Best, OLH

I hope the data will help raise awareness and change negative behaviors, I found the questions to be straightforward. As this is an anonymous survey, I was curious how researchers will control for duplicate responses? I'm sure if it happened, it would be a small portion of the responses, but I do not believe google forms is tracking IP addresses and I've heard of these internet trolls. With that, I'll just add some quotes about statistics that I found relevant to all the bickering:

• Errors using inadequate data are much less than those using no data at all. - Charles Babbage
• The utmost confusion is caused when people argue on different statistical data. - Sir Winston Churchill
• Statistics: the only science that enables different experts using the same figures to draw different conclusions. - Evan Esar

The last thing I am going to thow in here, is also personal, and affects me every single day.

Most of my friends are now climbers, or a few coworkers. Male, for the former, female for the latter. The majority of those close enough to confide such things have ongoing, serious, mental health issues. Like, 8 out of 10.

For most of us, we are managing quite well, and no one but those who know, would even suspect. But. Two people I care about deeply, are currently fighting for their lives. Literally. At extremely high risk for suicide, and every day is a huge struggle. It is not a quick fix. 

These aren't strangers. These people are members of our MP family.

Like a good man said, kindness. Always. You never know what some one else is battling.

Helen

J Squared wrote:

if you're curious about which sex actually pushed the hardest to create these conditions where women (and some men) now try and frame society as "patriarchal"  ....

start here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5O_FLUWYmg

food for thought.   the initial reasons were FULL of bias. (and if you try and dismiss this video as "mansplaining" then hooooly shit, cya)

every time I hear "this problem affects women MORE than men" i just laugh. then I cry.

how many rapists come from totally stable homes???

Thanks for the video. Refreshing to hear people intelligently discuss these topics.

Derek DeBruin wrote: Male and female veterans do not have statistically significantly different rates of PTSD:
https://www.research.va.gov/currents/0815-9.cfm

Sexual harassment is correlated with negative mental health outcomes (R -0.25) including PTSD and it appears sexual harassment may now also meet diagnostic criterion A for PTSD depending on the affected individual's perceptions and responses to harassment:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1744-6570.2007.00067.x 

Rate of PTSD among veterans is 11-20% for recent conflicts; 7-8% for the general population. https://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/ptsd-overview/basics/how-common-is-ptsd.asp 
Military and veterans account for roughly 7% of the U.S. population. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-percentage-of-americans-have-served-in-the-military/
In absolute terms, it seems plausible that cases of PTSD caused by sexual assault and/or sexual harassment could be greater than cases caused by combat as 10% x 7% = 0.7% and 0.7% < 7-8%. Even if that 7-8% includes combat veterans with PTSD, the absolute number of cases from non-combat causes would be greater. However, I haven't been able to find good info on the relative rates of PTSD by cause, so I'm not sure it's possible to say if more PTSD is cause by sexual assault or sexual harassment than combat trauma.

How can you decide that it is not possible to say where there is more PTSD?

It has already been said here that 50% of women have PTSD because of sexual harassment.  This may be even more if you look at the numbers in amarius chart.  But the number for combat trauma is only a few percent no matter how you do the math.  I am not trying to be unkind to say that PTSD for war does not matter but there is so much more if it caused by sexual harassment.  Many times more.  If a man wants to avoid PTSD he can just not join the army but women can not avoid it unless they do not have a job or even leave the house.

The difference matters because soldiers can get help for PTSD but there is little help for women who suffer the same from harassment.  The government gives medical care to soldiers, there is the VA and those things, perhaps not enough of course but at least there is some help.  But if a woman who has been sexually harassed even tries to take off from work because of the PTSD it caused nobody will care.  And half of women need this acknowledgement but almost none get it.