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Left-Handed Belay w/ A GriGri
Nick Drake wrote: I'm left handed. I just learned to belay with my right hand, it works fine. Its not like someone EVER says "I cant do this climb, its too right/left handed for me" . |
Andris Dimits wrote: Yes - sorry again about the very long post. Thanks to anyone who read any of it. I'm glad for the thread, because it showed that at least a couple of other people were using the method I liked, and no documentation of any potential dangers associated with it. I agree also that it's important to be able to adapt, and I'll probably end up having to belay "right-handed" at the gym.... I have certainly belayed right handed (albeit mostly with a Trango Tube, or an ATC) when tied in to a hanging anchor that had me oriented so I either had to do this or it was way more ergonomic, but I generally prefer the feeling of security of using the (long built-up) muscle memory of my left hand as the belay hand. If it's important to use a left hand as brake hand then just get something like a Smart Belay and be done with it. |
cyclestupor wrote: "you're gut reaction may be to pinch the grigri even harder" - maybe, maybe not... "it is possible to pinch it with enough force that even with a firm grip on the brake strand (with the last 3 fingers) the cam won't engage" - i don't agree with this statement at all. if you have a firm grip on the brake hand the cam will engage. i have seen a person catch a fall with his grigri loaded backwards. (i have also seen a guy crater when the belayer's grigri was loaded backwards and he wasn't gripping the brake end of the rope). |
Señor Arroz wrote: or, just use a grigri and provide a solid belay. it really isn't that hard..... |
slim wrote: You're preaching to the choir here, Slim. I'm a lefty and have never had trouble using a Grigri the way it's designed to be used. But IF someone, for whatever reason, can't brake with the right hand, then they shouldn't try to adapt a GriGri. They should just get something else that actually works well that way. |
T Roper wrote: I should have added to that, I had belayed with an ATC and left hand brake for a couple years first also. Still was not THAT hard to learn to belay with right on the grigri. |
slim wrote: Uh....do to you not know the difference between "pinching the (entire) grigri" versus disengaging the cam with a finger under the lip? pinching the grigri fully can actually prevent a catch...using the current petzl method cannot, it only allow the rope to feed |
Señor Arroz wrote: so you're saying a grigri should never be used left Hand on the brake strand? |
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This made me spill the B ! Jake Jones wrote: How do righties smoke left handed cigarettes? Turn their heads 180 degrees. Discussion of the proper use of the GriGri2 after Ashima's accident |
cyclestupor wrote: I'm well aware of dangers of squeezing the cam and preventing it from engaging, and I can assure you that the way I do it does not result in such an effect. My index finger is bent/wrapped around the rope (just not gripping the rope as strongly as the remaining three fingers, and the gri-gri is held between the side of the index finger and the thumb, if I use the thumb on the cam at all, which I don't need to, in most cases. The "instinctive squeezing" in this case results in the index finger joining the other 3 fingers on the rope, and the thumb sliding off the cam, not the squeezing of the cam. I think you are describing something very similar to what I do. If I remember later this weekend, I'll ask someone to take a picture while I'm belaying. :) |
Señor Arroz wrote: fair enough, i apologize if i misinterpreted your comments. oddly enough i am right handed but brake left handed. |
Jef Anstey wrote: ultimately you are doing the same thing in either case - defeating the cam. that being said, i don't necessarily disagree that the petzl method is likely more secure than just whole handedly grabbing the cam and yanking slack out. my original issue is that cyclestupor is basically assuming lena chita does the crush and yank, which isn't really what she describes. the method that i use doesn't pinch the grigri OR use the thumb to push down the lever. where does that fall in those two cases? assuming that it is physical nature to tighten the grip during a fall is definitely an assumption (and not a very good one). i know this from experience (otherwise known as being dropped), plus more experience (otherwise known as my belayer telling me they would have dropped my if they weren't using a grigri when i pulled off a chunk of rock and they let go of the rope to put their arms over their head). also, i have seen on several occasions where a belayer was pulled forward into the wall and let go with both hands to brace themselves for impact. so, saying that it is physical nature to tighten the grip is just not correct. if that was really the case almost nobody would be getting dropped. right? |
Jef Anstey wrote: Nah, I can see how you might have read it that way. But for all I care you can put both hands and a foot on the brake strand when you're catching someone or pulling slack on TR. The real issue is how one holds the grigri to pinch the cam and let rope pass right through to give rope to a leader. That should be done with right index finger on the little metal ridge, right thumb pushing down on the cam, and middle, ring, and pinkie fingers of the right hand holding the brake strand. |
slim wrote: Notice i used the word "may" which implies the same thing as "maybe, maybe not". I make no assumptions.
Notice how i said "It is possible", I didn't say it is guaranteed. I believe it to be possible based on an experiment I did with the grigri where i tied one end of the rope to a tree and walked/ran backward while pinching the grigri, and holding the brake strand at the same time. Whether or not the GriGri locked or slipped was highly dependent on how hard I pinched it vs. how hard I squeezed the rope. There was a point where the rope would slip, and i was still clamping fairly tightly on the rope. It is not hard for me to imagine an inexperienced belayer panicking and pinching the GriGri too hard. "Pinching the GriGri is possibly the cause of Ashima's accident (impossible to know for sure), and possibly other accidents as well." - Again, maybe, maybe not. You could also argue that not gripping the brake end of the rope sufficiently was the cause. Notice how I said "Impossible to know for sure". No assumptions there. " If the climber falls while you are doing this, your gut reaction will be to clench the brake strand." - seems like Conjecture here. will everybody have this reaction? hard to say... Oops I accidentally used "will" there. My bad. But clenching the hand is a common reaction. People in car accidents have the same reaction, and squeeze the hell out of the steering wheel. Petzl's current flavor-of-the-month-official-belaying-method clearly shows people defeating the cam to pull out slack. So you can't really argue that a person should follow petzl's current method while arguing not to pinch the brake. Ok... Now I think I understand where you are coming from. You are perceiving the people in the Petzl videos to be pinching the GriGri. I suppose you are correct in that it is possible to squeeze/pinch the cam down somewhat using the recommended technique, I'll give you that. But with your index finger tucked under the lip of the GriGri (as opposed to the bottom of it) you cant really squeeze it very tightly, and at the same time you have better control of the rope because all 4 fingers are wrapped around it. When I did the same experiment using the recommended technique, I couldn't make the rope slip as long as I gripped it with a reasonable force. On the new GriGri+ i have noticed that Petzl eliminated the lip all-together, meaning that when using the recommended technique (index finger just resting against the side plate where the lip used to be), there is no way to apply any pinching force. Right? Now, that being said, do i think crushing the brake handle the entire time you are belaying (like i see pretty often unfortuntately...) is the way to go? obviously not.... We are in agreement there. In practice, I never pinch the GriGri at all when fast feeding. I just push down on the cam with my thumb and my index finger doesn't actually pull up on the lip at all. That's my point... There is no need to ever squeeze/pinch GriGri, you can fast feed without squeezing. |
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Well the petzl recommended method is with index finger under the lip...and I've read of someone TRY to drop someone using this method (they used a dummy) and they could not |
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Or just get a smaller diameter rope and feed like an ATC, this is the best way for stubborn lefties who cant learn the "right" way. I taught myself to use it this way over the winter, its fine and bomber |
Jef Anstey wrote: Well the petzl recommended method is with index finger under the lip...and I've read of someone TRY to drop someone using this method (they used a dummy) and they could not Exactly. |
cyclestupor wrote: it happens dont fool yourself, its just a longshot |
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Ok. This isn't rocket science. I belay left handed with a grigri in its normal orientation. When I fast feed, instead of having the lip to hold my index finger, it goes under the device. My thumb still goes on top of the cam to temporarily disengage it. Still have 3 fingers wrapped around the brake strand. Perfectly safe, been doing it for years, caught more falls than I can count. Then when I go to lower, I switch to right handed to control brake strand. |
T Roper wrote: Huh? I'm agreeing that it happens. How am I fooling myself? |
