Dangers of hanging on gear

Peter Foster wrote:

Hanging on gear is dangerous. Doing dangerous stuff is stupid. Hanging on gear is stupid.

Climbing is dangerous stuff. Doing dangerous stuff is stupid. 

Climbing is not supposed to be 100% safe, if we wanted to be safe we wouldn't climb.

Josh Lipko wrote: Why does MP make climbing so much harder than it needs to be?  If it’s safe gear and you want to hang on it, then hang on it.  If it isn’t safe, then don’t.

I mean... this is really what it boils down to.  If you are contemplating hanging on gear, it is likely in a situation where there is a higher than normal chance you are going to fall if you go for the next move.  So, are people suggesting that hanging on gear is unsafe here and it is safer to climb up and fall on said piece of gear?  Are people still saying "the leader must not fall" and avoid loading gear except under extreme situations?  C'mon guys.  We are better than that.  If you are concerned that hanging on gear isn't safe, the only real reason is the gear placement is not safe.  THAT is a legit concern.  We trust our lives to the gear we use.  Either it is safe and you can hang/fall/host a dinner party on it, or it isn't and you have a problem no matter what.

I hang on gear at times.  Not often, but at times.  I also fall on gear at times.  Not often, but at times.  Hell... I have hung on and THEN fallen on gear.

~ Gabe

Josh Lipko wrote: Why does MP make climbing so much harder than it needs to be?  

Because there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Proj Way.

Josh Lipko wrote: If it’s safe gear...

Well, that is the question and a lot of beginning and intermediate crossovers can't reliably place and judge 'safe gear' or the effect resting on a piece of 'safe gear' will have on the overall system of pieces below it. 

Gabe Schwartz wrote: If you are contemplating hanging on gear, it is likely in a situation where there is a higher than normal chance you are going to fall if you go for the next move.  

And the problem with that is? I mean if you think the gear is good enough to hang on why not take a dive on it? Wouldn't you if it were a bolt?

Gabe Schwartz wrote: So, are people suggesting that hanging on gear is unsafe here and it is safer to climb up and fall on said piece of gear?  

Yes. What's the problem?

Gabe Schwartz wrote:  Are people still saying "the leader must not fall" and avoid loading gear except under extreme situations?

Nope, fall on gear a bunch - took a 60' footer last time I was up on a route I've been working on and six 30' falls on to a #3 ballnut before that. In fact, even bitd we could never figure out why anyone would say something that stupid once there were harnesses vs swamis and fell pretty much with abandon pre-cams. I've taken more dives on stacked nuts / hexs, Crack 'N Ups, and ballnuts than I can count or remember.

Gabe Schwartz wrote: Either it is safe and you can hang/fall/host a dinner party on it, or it isn't and you have a problem no matter what.

Nope - see the first comment above and if that were indeed the case then ripped pro from resting and ripped / zippered pro, in general, wouldn't be the primary cause of crossover accidents.

People still aid climb???

Ryan Swanson wrote:

Have you ever seen a perceived marginal piece, after holding a fall, do a Vertical Limit and just slide down and out of the rock while being loaded statically?

I've seen about every conceivable gear hold / fail scenario over the years. I've had cams explode into pieces, had perceived good cams blow, had shite I thought had a 10% chance hold, had rocks I picked up on the route and used for pro hold, and in general taken falls on to all manner of good and marginal pro - but I've never seen nor heard of a cam doing the VL shuffle.

But closely allied to such sliding, and the reason you want to orient cams in the direction of the fall and also don't want them rotating up or down, is that if a cam has to move in order to orient to the fall vector then it's doing just that - being set in motion against the rock and you're then betting it will somehow stop again and regrip the rock. That's a bet you might win a lot of the time, but sometimes you're definitely going to lose.

Stooopid Climbers

Jeff constine wrote: Stooopid Climbers

PROOF OF TIME OF DEATH OF THE STUPID TOPUR! 

Semantics time?
Define Climb? To climb?
 climbing, the word, describes/implies  an action verb,
 if you hang, you have stopped climbing.
hanging while Participating in the game of Rock Climbing is how the game is played, NOW.
It has not always been the excepted practice.
In an activity where  being a better  Yo-Yo is the goal, practice before a final performance,is the way to get better at it.
So, if it is in the pursuit of that goal that hanging occurs, and the current acceptance of the practice of hanging off gear, is embraced.
Hang , Dog!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MEDUSA!

CHIM-CHIM CHEROO TO YOU TOO.
CHEERS DNT DMT BMT MBT,  TTT AND OTD

Go to a bar near a destination climbing area, listen to the spew saying I sent this route, but did not notice you were on a route near by watching them hang on gear or bolts the entire day.

The real danger of hanging on gear is you might become an aid climbing addict. At first it's just the ocassional tug here and there, C0 you tell yourself. Pretty soon you're selling your rock shoes to buy pins. Pretty soon you'll be dragging your own fecal matter up cliffs. Get help while you still can.

Healyje wrote:

I've seen about every conceivable gear hold / fail scenario over the years. I've had cams explode into pieces, had perceived good cams blow, had shite I thought had a 10% chance hold, had rocks I picked up on the route and used for pro hold, and in general taken falls on to all manner of good and marginal pro - but I've never seen nor heard of a cam doing the VL shuffle.

But closely allied to such sliding, and the reason you want to orient cams in the direction of the fall and also don't want them rotating up or down, is that if a cam has to move in order to orient to the fall vector then it's doing just that - being set in motion against the rock and you're then betting it will somehow stop again and regrip the rock. That's a bet you might win a lot of the time, but sometimes you're definitely going to lose.

Watched a guy lead a single pitch one day. 45' crack that died into an overhanging bulge. Traverse right on thin face moves then 20' on jugs to the next pro. Mantle on to a ledge and good pro to finish.

Dude set 5 or 6 cams angled downward, (direction of fall) going up the crack. Good large stopper at the top of the crack.

Fell on the traverse, caught by the stopper. EVERY CAM below it rotated sideways and zippered out. Hitting his belayer in the hands. If the stopper had blown he'd have decked.

If he had stopped to hang on it and the cams rotated out just before it failed, same result. He'd have decked.

Intentionally loading gear is a risk I can avoid. 
 

John Barritt wrote:

Watched a guy lead a single pitch one day. 45' crack that died into an overhanging bulge. Traverse right on thin face moves then 20' on jugs to the next pro. Mantle on to a ledge and good pro to finish.

Dude set 5 or 6 cams angled downward, (direction of fall) going up the crack. Good large stopper at the top of the crack.

Fell on the traverse, caught by the stopper. EVERY CAM below it rotated sideways and zippered out. Hitting his belayer in the hands. If the stopper had blown he'd have decked.

If he had stopped to hang on it and the cams rotated out just before it failed, same result. He'd have decked.

Intentionally loading gear is a risk I can avoid. 
 

Glad the story worked out okay!

Was the belayer out of position? The stopper on one side or another from the rest of the line? Both? Something else? I'm newish and wondering what the rope line was to pull everything sideways. Early on, I had a climber ask "take" at the chains, and everything below them went straight out hard horizontal. The last bit was off to one side. Not an issue, clipped to the chains, but I suggested they take a look over their shoulder ("oops").

Thanks! OLH

Healyje wrote:

Well, that is the question and a lot of beginning and intermediate crossovers can't reliably place and judge 'safe gear' or the effect resting on a piece of 'safe gear' will have on the overall system of pieces below it. 

And the problem with that is? I mean if you think the gear is good enough to hang on why not take a dive on it? Wouldn't you if it were a bolt?

Yes. What's the problem?

Nope, fall on gear a bunch - took a 60' footer last time I was up on a route I've been working on and six 30' falls on to a #3 ballnut before that. In fact, even bitd we could never figure out why anyone would say something that stupid once there were harnesses vs swamis and fell pretty much with abandon pre-cams. I've taken more dives on stacked nuts / hexs, Crack 'N Ups, and ballnuts than I can count or remember.

Nope - see the first comment above and if that were indeed the case then ripped pro from resting and ripped / zippered pro, in general, wouldn't be the primary cause of crossover accidents.

I'm having trouble seeing what your argument is.  I am saying it is safe to fall or hang on gear if the gear is good.  You are saying 'why hang, just take a dive', which is the same thing.  The end state of falling on gear IS hanging on gear, so I really don't understand what point you are trying to make.

As an example of when I wouldn't take the dive.  I have a good gear placement, am a little pumped, and the next placement is a good amount of climbing away.  If I think I don't have it in me to get to the next placement unless I rest, I will take a hang there and then proceed.  If everything below me zippered when I hung on the top piece, I would reassess the situation.

~ Gabe

Helen, That particular crack runs up a corner and angles right from bottom to top. Top placement is off right of the start. Belayer was sitting inline in a good spot.

Anytime the rope goes tight on any climb everything below the top placement is going 90 degrees to the rope as it comes tight along the direction of travel. So sideways or straight out every time.

Just for fun, next time you're playing with stoppers, set one snuggly downward. Then holding the biner lift it up and outward quickly (without yanking) and see what happens.

You'll find a lot of bomber placements will end up in your hand.

John Barritt wrote: Helen, That particular crack runs up a corner and angles right from bottom to top. Top placement is off right of the start. Belayer was sitting inline in a good spot.

Anytime the rope goes tight on any climb everything below the top placement is going 90 degrees to the rope as it comes tight along the direction of travel. So sideways or straight out every time.

Just for fun, next time you're playing with stoppers, set one snuggly downward. Then holding the biner lift it up and outward quickly (without yanking) and see what happens.

You'll find a lot of bomber placements will end up in your hand.

Lol, John, I was "cheating" on a stopper on a sport lead last summer. Got my first real lead fall (unexpected, versus just stuck  the same spot) when I grabbed it to use as a handhold (maybe pushing it up?) and went flying, stopper in hand. Laughing my head off, too.

Thanks, John, I do try to understand this stuff, with my guys all into trad now. I do aim to do the best I can, as a belayer.

I'll be doing a bunch of messing with gear, down low this year, just for practicing various things. I also want to be prepared to set ground anchors, if needed, for belaying refrigerators now and then. I'm hoping to travel, and get heaps more climbing in, and meet some of you! ;-)

Best, Helen

John Barritt wrote: 
Anytime the rope goes tight on any climb everything below the top placement is going 90 degrees to the rope as it comes tight along the direction of travel. So sideways or straight out every time.

Oh really? If this is the case for you, I would suggest you're doing it wrong. This happens on climbs where the belayer is standing too far out from the lowest protection, OR the pro isn't sufficiently extended to prevent this, OR the pro zig-zags, OR the belayer isnt in line with the anchor. If the belayer, the pro and the anchor all line up (or within the reach of any draws or slings on your pieces) then this won't happen. Of course must climbs aren't perfectly straight splitters, but the ideal is to get the rope running straight by extending your pieces. In the instance of hanging on your gear, this can all be solved by clipping a draw from your belay loop to the piece you want to hang on. No zippering. No walking pieces below the top piece. Just body weight on protection designed to deal with much more than that. It seems as if most of the people saying "hanging on gear =bad" are saying its bad because you might zipper gear, or your top piece may pull. If either of these happens then hanging on gear was merely the last of a series of mistakes. How about hang directly on gear all you want but clip directly to the top piece, have your belayer positioned and pieces extended so that they wont zipper, and place solid protection!

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

Oh really? If this is the case for you, I would suggest you're doing it wrong. This happens on climbs where the belayer is standing too far out from the lowest protection, OR the pro isn't sufficiently extended to prevent this, OR the pro zig-zags, OR the belayer isnt in line with the anchor. If the belayer, the pro and the anchor all line up (or within the reach of any draws or slings on your pieces) then this won't happen. Of course must climbs aren't perfectly straight splitters, but the ideal is to get the rope running straight by extending your pieces. In the instance of hanging on your gear, this can all be solved by clipping a draw from your belay loop to the piece you want to hang on. No zippering. No walking pieces below the top piece. Just body weight on protection designed to deal with much more than that. It seems as if most of the people saying "hanging on gear =bad" are saying its bad because you might zipper gear, or your top piece may pull. If either of these happens then hanging on gear was merely the last of a series of mistakes. How about hang directly on gear all you want but clip directly to the top piece, have your belayer positioned and pieces extended so that they wont zipper, and place solid protection!

Because I'm betting it happens plenty, I will add, in the case of the new trad guy I was belaying, he was using sport draws. Not a problem, until it was. We both learned.

The rope going taut all the way down to the belay, seems like a lot more possibilities to shift gear, than if someone went in direct to one piece. Plenty to consider, thanks for the thread!

Best, H.

John Barritt wrote:

Watched a guy lead a single pitch one day. 45' crack that died into an overhanging bulge. Traverse right on thin face moves then 20' on jugs to the next pro. Mantle on to a ledge and good pro to finish.

Dude set 5 or 6 cams angled downward, (direction of fall) going up the crack. Good large stopper at the top of the crack.

Fell on the traverse, caught by the stopper. EVERY CAM below it rotated sideways and zippered out. Hitting his belayer in the hands. If the stopper had blown he'd have decked.

If he had stopped to hang on it and the cams rotated out just before it failed, same result. He'd have decked.

Intentionally loading gear is a risk I can avoid.
 

I could make the opposite arguement with your same observations.  Weighing the stopper to rest would most likely have the same effect (or less effect) on the gear below as falling on it; if you don’t trust your gear to rest on how can you trust it to whip on??  With all due respect, the story sounds like more of a lesson in extending gear and placement management than in this rest-vs-no rest debate.

In hindsite, I would neither rest nor lead out if I knew everything below my last piece was going to rip, putting me a piece away from possibly fatal ground fall.  I would sheepishly downclimb, change underwear, and put my rack up for sale on MP.

Most people die when they leave their house therefore leaving your house is the most dangerous thing you can do.