Dangers of hanging on gear

I thought the discussion of hanging on gear in the "double up protection" thread was interesting, and possibly worth dedicating a new thread to.

So, what are the dangers of hanging on trad gear?

The main arguments that I have seen are:

1) Gear can move into a position where it may not hold a fall.
Except this hazard isn't a direct result of hanging, but rather of failing to check gear after hanging (also applies to post-fall situations), right? I guess it is semantics, but is this a strong enough argument against taking on gear?

2) You will develop a reliance on hanging that can come back to bite you if you find yourself in a situation where hanging is not an option.
I can see where this argument is coming from, but it seems to rely on extending "hanging on gear" to the logical extreme. Granted, if a new trad leader learns to place gear while hang-dogging up route after route, it could certainly develop a false sense of security. But if the tactic is used judiciously, in concert with a well-developed decision-making process based on knowledge and experience, is it really foolish and bound to end in tragedy? If so, why?

Are there other explicit reasons that hanging on gear is categorically a bad idea?

I really hope this doesn't turn into a debate on the definition of trad climbing. In this thread, I'm not interested in the relationship between hanging on gear and climbing styles, just the tangible dangers of taking on gear.

My reading of it is that it is more of a correlation/association than a directly dangerous practice.  So it’s less about the actual act of taking and more about putting yourself in a situation where you need to take (in over your head) that can get you killed.  Trad climbing is not sport climbing, so good gear to take on will not always be available right when you need it.  Knowing your limits and staying on routes that you can climb with a reasonable degree of safety is important, so if you get into the habit of taking and approach trad climbs with the notion of dogging your way up, what happens when you get to a hard section and CAN’T take because there’s no pro?

I've wondered about this myself, and have climbed with folks who do it from time to time. It probably goes without saying that it depends on the piece and the situation, but generally speaking the only problem I see with it is that when folks go direct into a piece, they (the climber) sometimes move around, possibly shifting on a stance looking up at higher holds, or pre-placing upcoming pieces, adjusting/fixing lower pieces that weren't confidence inspiring, etc. I suppose it's possible it those situations to either walk a cam or pull outward on a stopper or something in a way that compromises the piece.

It's not something I am in the habit of doing personally, but it doesn't bother me all that much when I see climbers whom I trust doing it, either. I probably wouldn't teach new leaders this as a blanket strategy, but if watching experienced climbers do things like this from time to time is disconcerting, you definitely won't love aid climbing!

Just use good judgment and only hang on good gear. I've been hanging on gear for over four decades and nothing bad has happened because I only hang on gear that I know is good. Before anyone hangs on gear, they should first be very good at analyzing placements and putting in bomber gear...so a good internship in trad climbing should precede any hanging around.

When I place a piece, I expect it to hold when I take a fall on it, so it better hold my body weight if I need to hang.  I guess the biggest downside wqould be hanging on passive gear than can get jammed and make it hard for your second to clean.

But I never get into a climb with the mentality that I an going to hang on a piece to rest or figure out a move.  I happens mid route, but it is never something I want to do.

AaronJ wrote: 

I really hope this doesn't turn into a debate on the definition of trad climbing. In this thread, I'm not interested in the relationship between hanging on gear and climbing styles, just the tangible dangers of taking on gear.

Doesn't matter what you hope.  Gonna happen anyway.

Here, let's just get it out of the way:

Grumble Grumble- this is most certainly not trad climbing.  Something about young climbers and the dependence on cams and grigris, and they're all gonna die- oh and segue into how all this translates into retrobolting and how climbers these days have no self reliance because they don't try to get on something just by eyeballing it on a virgin cliff where no one has climbed before and onsight FA runout thyyyyytkrrrrrrjrrrrrrbssss!!!1111!!!!

AaronJ wrote: 

Are there other explicit reasons that hanging on gear is categorically a bad idea?

Possibly not categorical, but

3) gear will sometimes fail when you are hanging from it

4) Pain for second to remove.

5) It can be hard to get back on the rock and into a sensible climbing position.

6) Tests the system. Which can wrong in various ways.

7) Someone will take a picture of you hanging on that 5.10 and it will still haunt you even when you have soloed 5.13.

Hanging on gear is aid climbing. Aid climbing is stupid. Hanging on gear is stupid.

Peter Foster wrote: Hanging on gear is aid climbing. Aid climbing is stupid. Hanging on gear is stupid.

Climbing is stupid.

Therefore climbing is hanging on gear.

Peter Lewis wrote: Just use good judgment and only hang on good gear. I've been hanging on gear for over four decades and nothing bad has happened because I only hang on gear that I know is good. Before anyone hangs on gear, they should first be very good at analyzing placements and putting in bomber gear...so a good internship in trad climbing should precede any hanging around.

Exactly.

My only concern, ever, is outward pull on a nut if I'm hanging at it and not below it.  Same deal from the bottom if you're on a single pitch route (or the first pitch of a mulitpitch) and have a passive piece (or a string of them) and your belayer is standing back from the rock as you load the rope- possible upward zipper effect.  That situation, of course, can be easily mitigated with a mulitdirectional first piece and good communication with your belayer.

Everett wrote:

Climbing is stupid.

Therefore climbing is hanging on gear.

Hanging on gear is dangerous. Doing dangerous stuff is stupid. Hanging on gear is stupid.

The reality is that hanging on gear, while not always an option, often is.  And, the bulk of your pieces should be good enough that this is fine.  Sure, there will be times when the gear is marginal or not available, so entering any climb with the expectation that you can always rest is flawed, but in general you will be able to do it.  So, if the gear is good, the only reason not to ever hang on gear is really stylistic - provided as you stated you check for shifting after weighting.

This is a wierd thread.. Lots of opinions.. lots of options... seems like it's a personal preference for your own risk management. 

chris magness wrote:

Exactly.

My only concern, ever, is outward pull on a nut if I'm hanging at it and not below it.  Same deal from the bottom if you're on a single pitch route (or the first pitch of a mulitpitch) and have a passive piece (or a string of them) and your belayer is standing back from the rock as you load the rope- possible upward zipper effect.  That situation, of course, can be easily mitigated with a mulitdirectional first piece and good communication with your belayer.

That is an excellent point, Chris. Thanks for your helpful input. As a guide for many years, the situation you describe (a belayer far from the cliff base and the first piece of gear being passive and only good for a downward pull) was one I saw so often it makes me shiver to think about it. Whenever possible, I would provide respectful instruction and kind advice (which was almost always well received). 

As long as you're hanging on the gear in the direction of an anticipated fall and you clip directly to the piece, I don't see an issue. If you're just hanging off the rope then you could potentially move pieces below you as the rope comes tight. All that jazz about getting used to hangdogging means you won't be able to send when you have to is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. I mean I suppose it could be true if you're a bit of a dummy and can't comprehend the difference.

The safety drawbacks of the practice are straightforward:

1. The piece you rest on is likely to move and rotate when you rest and possibly when you climb off it making it less-well placed than it was initially
2. You have to check and possibly reset a piece after each time you rest on it
3. The pieces below it may rotate up to less than desirable positions, possibly lift out, or you may otherwise compromise the interconnected, bottom-to-top protection system you're constructing on lead
4. You're more likely to be tired and/or desperate when you place a piece with the intent of taking on it and so the quality of the placement could end less desirable than you hope
5. You're more likely to climb yourself into a serious situation you shouldn't be in in the first place (regardless of whether you can take or not)
6. You could end up runout in a situation where you just can't take

If you are already an advanced trad climber then none of these would really be an issue and you'd probably only be doing them on seriously hard lines. But they pose a significant hazard to beginning and intermediate crossovers to trad and are, collectively, the cause of most all crossover accidents I'm aware of and read about.

And I can't help but suspect a lot of this has way less to do with 'getting hurt' and way more to do with an general aversion to falling on gear due to a lack of confidence in it and a fear of falling from more than a body-length out - both of which do take some time and yardage to develop the requisite experience and judgment to move beyond. Still, the bottom line is the risks significantly outweigh the benefits for beginning and intermediate crossovers.

So never ever fall and if you do your belayer (if you have one) should lower you at full speed to avoid any extra time "hanging" on the dangerous gear. Basically lower or die.

I fall plenty, but if you fall on marginal gear and it holds, then yeah, get the fuck off it asap. But again, you should never have been in the situation of only having a marginal piece of pro between you and dying. Again, a lot of 'getting hurt' and 'dying' talk as the reason for taking. If that were really true then you're only making the point about the habit getting you into situations you shouldn't be in.

I have a friend who was belaying someone heavier who took on a piece of gear.  The gear held momentarily, taking most of the weight of the lighter belayer off of his feet, and then came out, causing the belayer to lose his balance and fall over.  The belayer received some minor rope-burn catching the resulting fall of the climber while simultaneously falling to the ground himself, but did not drop the climber.  But one could certainly see how this situation could lead to a bad outcome.

Kedron Silsbee wrote: but did not drop the climber.

+1

Why does MP make climbing so much harder than it needs to be?  If it’s safe gear and you want to hang on it, then hang on it.  If it isn’t safe, then don’t.