Devil's Lake Climbing Incident

Warrior wrote:

Could also be the belayer standing in the wrong spot. I've had that happen. Should have at minimum broke a leg. Got lucky.

I blame the gym culture for a lot of this, the assumption that every piece is safe to take or fall on (face it folks, some are for moral support and composure maintenance), the nonsense "dynamic belay" with a four foot loop of slack in the rope, and to the posters point, rope management at the bottom of the pitch.

Tradaban, Mark......       you guys make some good points.

Not to be disrespectful to Savannah, but I agree with the sentiments listed by these two experienced climbers. Gyms turn out strong climbers with little experience dealing with gear. I see this at Josh all the time. People toss in one cam and “go for it”, this has lead to several fatalities. Gyms also use the outdoor ratings, this makes people think that 5.7 to 5.10 is easy simple             climbing when in reality those old 5.8 will sting you badly if you’re not on top of the pro.

Sad deal

Guy Keesee wrote: Tradaban, Mark......       you guys make some good points.

Not to be disrespectful to Savannah, but I agree with the sentiments listed by these two experienced climbers. Gyms turn out strong climbers with little experience dealing with gear. I see this at Josh all the time. People toss in one cam and “go for it”, this has lead to several fatalities. Gyms also use the outdoor ratings, this makes people think that 5.7 to 5.10 is easy simple             climbing when in reality those old 5.8 will sting you badly if you’re not on top of the pro.

Sad deal

Josh is ground zero for this phenomenon, happens way too much. DL and Josh have very similar climbing, save for the rock it'self.

Again, I'm not saying this was the case in this accident, we can never know for sure but if there's any newish leaders out there reading this, please take trad climbing seriously. If ya want I will come out and give you a no holds barred criticism of your climbing, it would be my pleasure :)

Tradiban wrote:

As for the "old" me, rent the move "Hero" with Dustin Hoffman, it's all you need to know 

Didn't know they made a movie about being an ass, I'll have to go watch it.

Guy Keesee wrote: Tradaban, Mark......       you guys make some good points.

Not to be disrespectful to Savannah, but I agree with the sentiments listed by these two experienced climbers. Gyms turn out strong climbers with little experience dealing with gear. I see this at Josh all the time. People toss in one cam and “go for it”, this has lead to several fatalities. Gyms also use the outdoor ratings, this makes people think that 5.7 to 5.10 is easy simple             climbing when in reality those old 5.8 will sting you badly if you’re not on top of the pro.

Sad deal

While I agree that this happens, this was not the case here.  Savannah had led many routes on gear in several different locations and this was not her first time leading at the Lake.  She was well acquainted with DL ratings; in fact, I had talked with her about this specific route (to my knowledge, she hadn’t been on it).  My speculation is that she went for the onsight and went for it at the crux, hoping to pull through it or for the gear to hold.  It didn’t.  A 20 foot fall shouldn’t have killed her, but the perfect storm of gear pulling and falling in just the wrong way cost her her life.

Guy Keesee wrote: Gyms also use the outdoor ratings, this makes people think that 5.7 to 5.10 is easy simple             climbing when in reality those old 5.8 will sting you badly if you’re not on top of the pro.

Sad deal

Gym ratings are often wildly inaccurate as well, what should be graded as 5.7 will get a 10a in the gym for what I suspect are ego inflation reasons that keep the customers happy. It's a problem in our area.

C L wrote: Wow, this thread has gotten really bad. Heres what needs to be known: 

• What size gear was placed?
• Was the gear doubled up next to each other (usually indicating marginal placements), or spaced out more? 
• Had she climbed above the gear so that it could have walked?
• How far up was her first piece, and which piece ripped first (did it zipper from below)?

Knowing these things will help prevent future mistakes. Anything else about the person's ability, gym ratings, etc. is just pointless bickering.

It's not pointless bickering, it may not have been in this instance, but in several others, gym derived overconfidence was a contributing factor.

C L wrote: Wow, this thread has gotten really bad. Heres what needs to be known: 

• What size gear was placed?
• Was the gear doubled up next to each other (usually indicating marginal placements), or spaced out more? 
• Had she climbed above the gear so that it could have walked?
• How far up was her first piece, and which piece ripped first (did it zipper from below)?

Knowing these things will help prevent future mistakes. Anything else about the person's ability, gym ratings, etc. is just pointless bickering.

I don't I agree with this. I think that we know enough right now to take away important lessons. The first is that falling on moderate trad routes should be avoided whenever possible. In one of these threads rgold proposed the idea that if you are leading a trad route 5.9 or easier and you fall, you 'failed' and should dial it back and keep working through the grades patiently.  I agree with this.

The second is that experience does not equal expertise. The climber placed two poor pieces of gear, they pulled out during a fall, and the worst possible consequences occurred.  How many traditional routes you have climbed previously has zero bearing on the quality of the gear you place if your fundamentals are not sound.  Make sure that you know what good gear looks like and strive to make every placement perfect.

Ted Pinson wrote:

While I agree that this happens, this was not the case here.  Savannah had led many routes on gear in several different locations and this was not her first time leading at the Lake.  She was well acquainted with DL ratings; in fact, I had talked with her about this specific route (to my knowledge, she hadn’t been on it).  My speculation is that she went for the onsight and went for it at the crux, hoping to pull through it or for the gear to hold.  It didn’t.  A 20 foot fall shouldn’t have killed her, but the perfect storm of gear pulling and falling in just the wrong way cost her her life.

Ok, so why do you think the gear pulled?

Alexander Blum wrote:

I don't I agree with this. I think that we know enough right now to take away important lessons. The first is that falling on moderate trad routes should be avoided whenever possible. In one of these threads rgold proposed the idea that if you are leading a trad route 5.9 or easier and you fall, you 'failed' and should dial it back and keep working through the grades patiently.  I agree with this.

The second is that experience does not equal expertise. The climber placed two poor pieces of gear, they pulled out during a fall, and the worst possible consequences occurred.  How many traditional routes you have climbed previously has zero bearing on the quality of the gear you place if your fundamentals are not sound.  Make sure that you know what good gear looks like and strive to make every placement perfect.

1. Trad is not ice climbing. You can fall. You can fall even at DL. I did when I was learning, and will continue to fall. 

2. Ueli Steck was experienced and an expert at quickly moving through moderate terrain, but he fell and died. Bad shit happens man, and it's part of the risk we all take.

3. Nobody knows how Savannah was feeling, what her thoughts were when placing the gear. If there is a location anywhere in the world where a well placed cam can pull, its DL.

4. When Ueli died nobody questioned that it was bad luck. This isn't any different.

Gabe B. wrote:

1. Trad is not ice climbing. You can fall. You can fall even at DL. I did when I was learning, and will continue to fall. 

2. Ueli Steck was experienced and an expert at quickly moving through moderate terrain, but he fell and died. Bad shit happens man, and it's part of the risk we all take.

3. Nobody knows how Savannah was feeling, what her thoughts were when placing the gear. If there is a location anywhere in the world where a well placed cam can pull, its DL.

4. When Ueli died nobody questioned that it was bad luck. This isn't any different.

1. I never said you can't fall. I said falling in the moderate grades is often more dangerous, especially as a less experienced climber.

2 & 4. Comparing the death of a cutting edge mountaineer on a difficult Himalayan solo yo a death caused by gear pulling on a moderate trad route doesn't make much sense to me. I see the two situations as very different.

3. Well placed cams do not pull. Cams in sub-optimal placements pull. Theres always a reason. It's up to us as climbers to evaluate our placements and do everything in our power to avoid sub optimal placements. This means accounting for slick or soft rock, dirt, ice, direction of pull, etc.

• Edit: I want to make it very clear that I don't think accidents like this are endemic to inexperienced trad climbers. The way to look at an accident isnt "this could never happen to me". Its "how can i keep this from happening to me?". Arguing about "noobs from the gym" is dumb and adds nothing to the argument. Transitioning gym climbers are still trad climbers, seeking out the same experiences on the rock as the rest of us. 

Tradiban wrote:

Ok, so why do you think the gear pulled?

I have no idea, nor does anyone with the possible exception of those who were there.

Mark Wenzel wrote:

I love it when folks make sophomoric assumptions about my motivations, then threaten me. I'm moving to VA. nect month, look forward to running into you.

Sorry, I missed the part where he threatened you. Can you point that out?

Gabe B. wrote:

1. Trad is not ice climbing. You can fall. You can fall even at DL. I did when I was learning, and will continue to fall. 

2. Ueli Steck was experienced and an expert at quickly moving through moderate terrain, but he fell and died. Bad shit happens man, and it's part of the risk we all take.

3. Nobody knows how Savannah was feeling, what her thoughts were when placing the gear. If there is a location anywhere in the world where a well placed cam can pull, its DL.

4. When Ueli died nobody questioned that it was bad luck. This isn't any different.

I don't think its productive to write off accidents as just "bad shit happens", shit happens for a reason. Ignoring the cause of the accident allows people to just accept bad judgement in their own climbing. People like to make excuses like "Oh, well...ya know that route is really sketchy", or "The rock is really slick", or "There was a bad belay", etc, anything to place blame elsewhere. Your safety is always on you, as the climber. There ARE, things you can do to ALWAYS stay safe while climbing. Some are judgements, some are technical but leader fall accidents can always be avoided. 

Ueli died because he made a giant mistake, he fell while he was unroped, it doesn't make him a noob, it just makes him human. 

@Jake As usual TLDR but from the gist of it, I think we have transcended the DL accident and are into other topics, different but related to staying safe while climbing. Nothing wrong with doing that. Also, I do have additional specific information related to this accident but I actually want to move away from discussing it directly as I don't really feel like taking a bunch of heat for my opinions of that information since tensions are obviously high.

BTW, it's ok to be a noob as long as ya admit it and are open to learning more about climbing.

Ted Pinson wrote:

 A 20 foot fall shouldn’t have killed her, but the perfect storm of gear pulling and falling in just the wrong way cost her her life.

Pure dumb luck determined the consequences, however the fall happened. In this case, very sadly, a vibrant young life was lost. A year ago? Pure dumb luck saved myself and my climber from serious consequences in a fall that should have been fatal. 

All of us seek to gain knowledge from others to hopefully avoid rolling the dice any more than is needed. Anyone who thinks they are incapable of making a mistake, is not someone I would ever want to be roped up with, no matter their experience or expertise. Gumby or forty years in, that's Russian roulette.

OLH

Mark Wenzel wrote:

Gym ratings are often wildly inaccurate as well, what should be graded as 5.7 will get a 10a in the gym for what I suspect are ego inflation reasons that keep the customers happy. It's a problem in our area.

No, ratings are all over the place in old school places like the lake. This very website has a function that helps people read through the old school ratings and actually see the consensus/modern ratings. Gyms dont help but its not their problem, most of them stick to modern sport crag ratings. 

Old lady H wrote:Anyone who thinks they are incapable of making a mistake, is not someone I would ever want to be roped up with, no matter their experience or expertise. Gumby or forty years in, that's Russian roulette.

OLH

Genius.  Couldn’t be better put.

Gabe B. wrote: If there is a location anywhere in the world where a well placed cam can pull, its DL.

I would argue that any piece that pulls was questionable. Whether the leader knew it was suspect or not is highly dependent on experience

Any updates or accurate accident reports?  Very tragic, my condolences to friends and family.  
As an avid climber, I want to learn as much as possible about what happened to help prevent similar accidents.   It sounds like she was cautious and prepared and an amazing caring person.