Smith Rock - One fixed draw 3rd bolt on Magic Light for safe cleaning. Opinions?

Clean the last draw and have the belayer toss you the other end of the rope from the slack end pile. Simply lower out 15 feet off of the hanger with the extra rope. Problem solved. Some will say this causes too much wear on the hanger/rope. Not true there is a way to lower hand over hand on a halfed rope without any movement through the hanger. 

I am not advocating for not placing the fixed draw. It would certainly be nice. Also, I was there when the gal smashed in to the tree last week - and the next day when someone went in direct to take off the same draw and almost decked when they removed their personal anchor without asking the belayer to take. I am ashamed of the lack of knowledge that climbers possess to avoid potentially dangerous situations, without using simple communication and improvisation. We need to continue to educate ourselves, even in sport climbing scenarios, to be able to deal with unfamiliar situations.  

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Did you replace the old draws or take them down?  There wouldn’t be as many old shitty draws if everyone just did that. Actually a really easy problem to solve.  I do it often at Smith.

I am no longer a local at smith so stewardship efforts are logistically hard, next time I get a chance to try time to power I'll try to bring some replacements. The point that I was trying to bring up was that many of the fixed routes at smith are in a state of disrepair. It seems to me like routes should either not have fixed gear, or they should be fixed with gear that will last more than two seasons.

Metolius is donating a draw to this cause. I'm grateful for that, and I'l put it up next time I'm there. All this kicking has probably been bad for that tree's health too.

Thank you to everybody who replaces the fixed gear in the park. Lots of people take it for granted that we get to try Churning and whip on a bunch on gear that isn't ours. I think the fixed gear that you find at anchors and on routes at Morning Glory, Dihedrals, and else where around the park is smart so far. It's obvious that this place is getting a lot more traffic each year. We definitely need more people acting as stewards and making sure that the gear that's up on the wall is safe.

I called them before I ever started this post, so they have been following this thread. My instinct was to just to buy a draw and put it up, but a chat with Moses at Metolius made me realize that checking in on Mountain project would be a good first move. Now we just gotta hope that people figure out what the draw's for! It'll go up this weekend. That's it for now

samhans wrote: I called them before I ever started this post, so they have been following this thread. My instinct was to just to buy a draw and put it up, but a chat with Moses at Metolius made me realize that checking in on Mountain project would be a good first move. Now we just gotta hope that people figure out what the draw's for! It'll go up this weekend. That's it for now

Thanks for your effort. 

Tim Garland why did you take that draw this morning? That was community gear donated by Metolius. You did not just score booty gear that happened to be a steel draw with a quick link. You stole from this community.

I understand Tim may not be active on Mountain Project, so it will be up to his climbing partners to pass this message onto him.

This is a problem. What's the solution Tim? Tell him it won't blow over. Even if you're not pissed, you can tell him that I am, and I won't just let it go.

This should piss off anybody who cares about fixed gear in the park! This is a BIG REASON why people are hesitant about investing in fixed gear in the park. I'm lucky that Metolius donated the draw, but how sad it would it be if our local gear manufacturer has just donated a draw to Tim instead of to the community like they meant to?

samhans wrote: Tim Garland why did you take that draw this morning? That was community gear donated by Metolius. You did not just score booty gear that happened to be a steel draw with a quick link. You stole from this community.

I understand Tim may not be active on Mountain Project, so it will be up to his climbing partners to pass this message onto him.

This is a problem. What's the solution Tim? Tell him it won't blow over. Even if you're not pissed, you can tell him that I am, and I won't just let it go.

This should piss off anybody who cares about fixed gear in the park! This is a BIG REASON why people are hesitant about investing in fixed gear in the park. I'm lucky that Metolius donated the draw, but how sad it would it be if our local gear manufacturer has just donated a draw to Tim instead of to the community like they meant to?

Ooo, getting spicy. Could this be an idiotic 'ethics' dispute? I can't believe someone would think that a steel cable/quicklink draw was booty.

+1 in support of the fixed draw.  That being said,  Nine Gallon Buckets has exactly the same problem, a similar solution, (a fixed anchor you can reclip on the way down to stay in line) and people still blow it all the time.  I think fully fixing the route (or at least the first four) is the only way to completely eliminate the problem.

Edit to add:  I think you might have moved a little quickly on this one.  It's awesome that you took the initiative to make it happen and followed through, but I think the fact that the draw was removed is evidence that this thread isn't exactly a consensus in the community.  I'd try to reach out to those who don't usually participate on MP and weren't in on the conversation before stirring things up here.

I’m a no. But I’d use it if it were there.

If a chain draw goes up I’ll peraonaly take it down. Nylon it the accepted practice. 

Putting up fixed draws (with engraved instructions printed on them???) to save climbers from themselves? SRSLY? I feel bad for the woman who impaled herself on the tree, but she apparently didn't employ very basic cleaning techniques that could have kept herself safe. However, I bet she'll never make that mistake again! On the other hand, the next novice who comes along and clips the fixed draw won't learn either, and then when he/she finds himself/herself in a situation where the consequences are higher than Magic Light at Smith Rock, he/she will be truly fucked. I suspect the answers lie in better education, mentorship, and, well, good old common sense & risk assessment rather than in trying to make everything as idiot-proof as possible.

Edit to add: If the fixed draw would save the tree from damage than I'd be in favor of it.

jbrown2 Brown wrote: If a chain draw goes up I’ll peraonaly take it down. Nylon it the accepted practice. 

I'd always suspected Smith was a bit backward. Thanks for confirming.

JCM wrote:

I'd always suspected Smith was a bit backward. Thanks for confirming.

I'm not sure why no one's taken the time to explain Smith's 'backwardness,' but it's rooted in not wanting to scar the rock.  Chains (and really all fixed gear) that gets left up in the wind rubs off the patina and leaves an unsightly yellow circle around each bolt if the rock is less than vertical. (a good example of this can be found on Time's Up/Slit Your Wrists/Mr. Yuk) That's why Justin and others advocate for nylon as opposed to chain.  It's also likely why the draw was removed.  Some don't want fixed gear on slabby climbs for exactly this reason.

To Josh's point, I feel like that's missing the context of what's being discussed.  If it were in a committing environment or a crag with more serious climbing, I'd get it.  But the reality is that Smith has turned into a massive outdoor gym and no amount of complaining about it on the internet (or likely any course of action) is going to change that.  I'd philosophically disagree that every climber needs to be prepared for 'more serious situations.'  Some just want to mindlessly clip bolts and that's okay as long as in doing so they're not ruining a crag that's designed for a different style of climbing.  Smith is literally the birthplace of mindlessly clipping bolts in North America, (sort of-I'll concede that the first 'sport' climbs weren't exactly mindless) so it doesn't seem unreasonable to bring it up to code.

I understand your point Max, but personally I draw the line at "mindlessly" - I don't think that's OK. Netflix is a good activity for checking your brain at the door - not climbing. I do think it's OK to simply want to clip bolts and to be safe doing so. I enjoy this myself and would be a total hypocrite to criticize others for it. And I'm all in favor of bomber hardware and I enjoy the convenience of stainless steel permadraws for that matter...

But, unless I'm mistaken, is it not fully possible to clean this route with minimal effort AND while still being safe? It's just a matter of learning and using some pretty simple techniques. What the OP is proposing isn't really about convenience or safety (which are valid arguments), it's about enabling ignorance.

Max Tepfer wrote:  But the reality is that Smith has turned into a massive outdoor gym and no amount of complaining about it on the internet (or likely any course of action) is going to change that.  .... Some just want to mindlessly clip bolts and that's okay as long as in doing so they're not ruining a crag that's designed for a different style of climbing.  Smith is literally the birthplace of mindlessly clipping bolts in North America, (sort of-I'll concede that the first 'sport' climbs weren't exactly mindless) so it doesn't seem unreasonable to bring it up to code.

As someone who was climbing 30 years ago and who was told 100 times "if you don't like rappel placed bolts, don't clip 'em", I'd like to say LOFL.  (to this whole thread, not Max)

Another reason that chain is not used is that it causes higher peak loads on the bolts compared to nylon and even dyneema. I believe petzl tested this, I can't be bothered to look into it more. This is partially a consideration to those out there replacing bolts, it's quite a lot easier to replace draws than bolts. Nylon UV damage takes longer than you think as well, AND there are products now that protect nylon from UV rays, making this less relevant. 

I hear you Josh and I think this debate surfs the fine line.  In this case, to clean it after a lead (without seconding it) the leader has to stay clipped into a bolt, reclimb some of the 10- start, and then clean the high draw.  (where a fixed draw is being proposed)  Is that minimal effort?  I guess that's a matter of perspective.  I feel like it would be in keeping with other modern sport climbing areas (the Red, New, Sinks, etc.) to ease the cleaning in this case.  I cleaned my draws after a burn on the Trophy last week and it was super annoying, but it worked.  I think Magic Light toes the line on the spectrum between that and not worth fixing.

I agree with many of the points in this thread. Tho Im a bit torn on the solution. I think the best way to preserve our staunch no-fixed-draws-on-sub-5.12 ethic, would be to remove the tree and probably the fence just left of it.

But the reality is that Smith has turned into a massive outdoor gym and no amount of complaining about it on the internet (or likely any course of action) is going to change that.  I'd philosophically disagree that every climber needs to be prepared for 'more serious situations.'  Some just want to mindlessly clip bolts and that's okay as long as in doing so they're not ruining a crag that's designed for a different style of climbing.  Smith is literally the birthplace of mindlessly clipping bolts in North America, (sort of-I'll concede that the first 'sport' climbs weren't exactly mindless) so it doesn't seem unreasonable to bring it up to code.

Anyone treating Smith like a 'massive outdoor gym' and 'mindlessly clilping bolts' is probably gonna get injured.

This is an interesting debate that gets at some bigger issues about fixed gear. No easy answer and there are good points on both sides, although I lean toward the convenience side of things given the context. The problem is, whether there is a fixed draw or not, it requires some thought or knowledge from the party cleaning the route. I am always happy to clue in the people involved if I can see that something is about to go wrong. It gets old but I would rather that than be witness/responder to an accident. It is pretty simple to clean safely but this may require some education for the newbs out there.

Magic light is just a link up anyhow. Overboard is the logical pure rout and should be the only one leaving the ground at that point.  I say either Bolt a new start to magic light or pull all the bolts. #Delinkup smith.