Would you donate money or bolts for a first ascent in a new destination climbing area?

I’m thinking about a long-term climbing area development project in Mexico. I wanted to get some community feedback about some of my ideas. The area is about one hour by car from a major airport along a safe major highway, and currently has a few sport routes on good-quality conglomerate, and there is good reason to think that access can be negotiated for more routes.  (Of course, this project would only proceed with the support and involvement of local stakeholders, land managers, and the local climbing community.) There is huge potential for many more routes up to three or four pitches. The area has consistently better year-round climbing weather than El Potrero Chico, and is in a tourist/archeology area that I believe to be comparable to El Potrero Chico in terms of safety. The area also has unrivaled cultural/ecotourism opportunities for rest-days.

I’d like to start a major climbing area development project in a few years, with the goal of eventually starting a climber’s hostel/camping area/guide service. One challenge will be buying bolts/hardware to equip all the routes. I am thinking about a crowd-funding donation effort in which people who donate hardware or money for hardware would have the option of getting a first ascent of a route at the grade of their choice. People who donate would have around maybe 365 days to come down and FA a route. They could name the route, and have their name as the FA in an eventual guidebook.

I’m curious if people think something like this approach might be a viable option for funding help. Suppose that the access/community buy-in issues were solved, there were pictures online of a few high-quality sample routes, and independent positive initial reviews of the area and routes were available online. How much would you be willing to donate to the further development of a new area like this, and would the option of getting the FA of an equipped, red-tagged route make you more willing to donate?

What have you bolted in Springfield? 

Do you think Western climbers are riding the coattails of imperialism by going international?

Vas Carmicheal wrote:

Do you think Western climbers are riding the coattails of imperialism by going international?

Meaningless gibberish.

FrankPS wrote:

Meaningless gibberish.

FrankPS. Internationals coming to plunder first ascents is imperialism. Local First ascents often have inherent scarcity.

David S wrote:

Why don't you apply for a grant from one of the climbing organizations?  

https://americanalpineclub.org/grants/

Thanks for the link, David S!

Vas Carmicheal wrote:

What have you bolted in Springfield? 

Do you think Western climbers are riding the coattails of imperialism by going international?

Hi VC, I have only done hardware replacement and trad and boulder FAs in the past, no bolted FAs so far. Your point is well-taken that FAs are in limited supply, and I see that the funding of project as I've described it here does sound imperialist in the sense that it might seem like a limited resource is being taken from a local community to be "sold", for want of a better word, to wealthy foreigners. Again, point well-taken, and thanks for the feedback. I'm curious though, do you think doing FAs in other countries is inherently problematic, or are there situations in which it is appropriate?

Honestly, get a business loan, (guide service, store, campground) buy bolts with that.

Bolting conglomerate is the most difficult rock to get good long-term results. I would do glue in bolts, I would do very long bolts. Essentially, do it right so your work last for 20 years of traffic. 

Get a big motha drill Bosch or hilti and a little lead drill makita 18v 

The hardest part will be cleaning and glueing the rock to make it safe.  

Start a business, pay good living wages to locals and invest in the community. when you retire, sell to a local.  

It sound like you are trying to start a business. I'd recommend getting a business loan...

Where are you planning to bolt this routes? I will be willing to make a substantial donation but wont take the FA forma a route I didnt bolt. Specially if I didnt knew the person that bolted the route 

Paco De la Pena wrote:

Where are you planning to bolt this routes? I will be willing to make a substantial donation but wont take the FA forma a route I didnt bolt. Specially if I didnt knew the person that bolted the route 

theres probably a few who would, give it 10 years and this idea could work. FAs, without actually getting dirty, are becoming really popular on the interwebz

edit- it seems begging is becoming more popular than doing these days. thanks Obama!

I don't think you can blame Obama, peaple have  been leaving trades in droves for over a decade... I blame colleges

If you think the actual hardware cost for the routes is your biggest expense, then I have to question if you have actually bolted many routes. You biggest cost in doing something, anything at a location where you do not currently live is food and shelter day to day. The cost of bolts and anchors doesn't even figure in the big picture. That's why even dirtbags can put up routes once they buy a drill. One, they have time. If you are working at any job to live, you will lack the time to develop routes. Space Boyz, the well known multi-pitch classic in the Potrero was bolted entirely on weekends. The guys that did it had jobs back in Texas.

Also, be aware of what has happened to other people that attempted the same thing you are talking about. Look into Kurt Smith's experiences with his hacienda down in the Potrero. It did not end well. Realize that as a US citizen you will not be able to own property in Mexico legally ever in the sense that you can here. People have built mansions in Baja that were unceremoniously seized by the local government for no other reason than they make the rules. You have no legal rights as a foreigner. If you have a ton of money, you might have some influence, but that's it.

Try developing some routes in a remote area you can locate near where you live. Finding new rock isn't that hard, but making it accessible for others takes some time. Pay for the hardware yourself. Or, just head over to this place you describe and bolt some good lines. Visit frequently and invite others to bolt routes. If it's a viable place, others will want to help put up routes. But I don't know about monetizing it. 

I think there are definitely people who would be open/willing to donate (there almost always are people willing to donate...). Things that would be a consideration for me:

-I'm not likely to donate money to the development of an area that I am unlikely to ever visit.

-I would like to know something about potential access issues. Not much sense in donating to a place that would be a secret friends-of-locals-only playground, or would be shut down in two years because the bolter never bothered to check who owns the land.

-I am not likely to donate to a bolter/developer if I know nothing about him/her. There are people who bolt at my home area  whose bolting I really like, and there are people whose bolting I absolutely hate. Some of the factors can be called reasonable (I can point out to some routes where I think the bolting stances could have been better). And some of the factors are just personal like/dislike based on things I have heard them say, or the attitudes I found unpleasant. But the bottom line, I would have to have some knowledge to go on, before I make a decision to donate.

Rob the tricam wrote:

I don't think you can blame Obama, peaple have  been leaving trades in droves for over a decade... I blame colleges

I could drift this thread so hard right here..........but Roper would get the credit............. ;)

Jack Powers..... why do you simply show us this crag on the map, google earth. If it’s any good people are going to climb and equip roots so they can do the FAs. Your crowed sourced $$$$ and rules .... “reserved FAs”... are not required. 

Be careful in Mexico.... they have very tough immigration laws and they are enforced. You can not own a business or property or even get a job. 

Paco De la Pena wrote:

Where are you planning to bolt this routes? I will be willing to make a substantial donation but wont take the FA forma a route I didnt bolt. Specially if I didnt knew the person that bolted the route 

Hi Paco, Thanks for the feedback! I see you climb around Mexico City. Would you want to climb at Los Dinamos sometime? I tend to be down there around Christmas and New Years, and am pretty stoked especially about some of the bouldery routes at Primer Dinamo.

Guy Keesee wrote:

Jack Powers..... why do you simply show us this crag on the map, google earth. If it’s any good people are going to climb and equip roots so they can do the FAs. Your crowed sourced $$$$ and rules .... “reserved FAs”... are not required. 

Be careful in Mexico.... they have very tough immigration laws and they are enforced. You can not own a business or property or even get a job. 

Hi Guy, thanks for the feedback. Cool to hear from such an accomplished and storied climber; that pic of you in the stone master book is great! I want to work out a few access kinks first, but after that, yeah, I totally will be happy to share the location and other beta, and super stoked if people think it is good enough to come down and bolt some stuff. Thanks also for the pointer on legal issues in Mexico. That said, I think maybe you are interpreting what I wrote a little uncharitably. You put "reserved FAs" in quotation marks as if it was a term I used, and made it sound as if I was proposing rules for a new area. I am not. Rules are the purview of land managers and the local community, not me. I understand how my use of the term "red-tagged route" might sound as if I was talking about somehow reserving routes, but red-tags have never binding rules. They are just more of a way of saying "FA by bolter or their friends is pending, please don't send." But after feedback, I can see how what I proposed in the original post is off-putting for a lot of folks, and does sounds sort of imperialist and sinister. Probably just gonna put out a tip jar instead, if this project works out as I hope it will. Thanks again, all, for the feedback.

Lena chita wrote:

I think there are definitely people who would be open/willing to donate (there almost always are people willing to donate...). Things that would be a consideration for me:

-I'm not likely to donate money to the development of an area that I am unlikely to ever visit.

-I would like to know something about potential access issues. Not much sense in donating to a place that would be a secret friends-of-locals-only playground, or would be shut down in two years because the bolter never bothered to check who owns the land.

-I am not likely to donate to a bolter/developer if I know nothing about him/her. There are people who bolt at my home area  whose bolting I really like, and there are people whose bolting I absolutely hate. Some of the factors can be called reasonable (I can point out to some routes where I think the bolting stances could have been better). And some of the factors are just personal like/dislike based on things I have heard them say, or the attitudes I found unpleasant. But the bottom line, I would have to have some knowledge to go on, before I make a decision to donate.

Hi Lena, thanks for the feedback! Would like to hear your thoughts on what made some of those bolt placements you were talking about less-than-ideal for you.

Rob the tricam wrote:

I don't think you can blame Obama, peaple have  been leaving trades in droves for over a decade... I blame colleges

I blame liberal elementary school teachers right after Obama. Its not our fault that they cant educate our sugared up and grease saturated kids, they should have better training. 

;)