Thoughts on CMac’s 2 ladder technique?

Hey everyone,

I was in Zion earlier this week and took one look at Moonlight Buttress and realized I needed to get into aid climbing.  I’ve been using Chris’ Big Walls book and was planning to practice basic aiding technique with a few ladders in the gym.  I’m curious to people’s thoughts on his 2-ladder “basic aid climbing” technique, as demonstrated here:

https://youtu.be/IVJSx6dqjno

It makes sense to me, but I don’t have enough experience to really make an informed judgement, so I’d like to learn more before I start dialing systems.

I'm just starting out with aid too, but what other technique is there? I thought you needed at least 2 ladders

Well, he mentions that some people like to use 4.

Slow is usually built into the person...

I'm going to lean into this hard if I start getting frustrated with myself.

Two sets of two. 

A friend of mine who has numerous one day solos of El Cap to his credit uses the technique CMac advises. 

Slow is usually built into the person... not on how many sets they are using. Yup.

What I would add to second what Russy/Mark is saying is that 2 sets of two is handy on your first "hard aid" experience, imo, because you already are a little freaked out and slow and 2 aiders on the piece makes you feel more stable.

Super straight forward C1 and Chris has it absolutely right because you are going fast and not hanging on the piece too long.

Once it gets hard and you have to be on the piece for awhile figuring out the next placement standing in two aiders is an energy saver, imo, if a little bit more of a cluster generator.

I feel pretty strongly that when your fitness has approached "aid beast" (core and legs) status its less critical. Most of the rest of us got pretty physically beat up on our first walls. Short stuff in Zion that isn't that steep I could see 2 only being fine....but when it is steep and you are less fit anything that makes it more comfortable is worth it. You will really notice it on that 4 hour lead.

2 cents.

Also, don't underestimate proper footwear. Something real with support is very useful otherwise your feet get really beat up.

I'll echo what other people are saying here in that 2 aiders (I much prefer the ladder style as opposed to the alternating step) is adequate and for me faster on straight forward aid climbing. If you're aiding out steeper terrain or making big moves between sketchy placements 4 might be nice. I've found that sometimes a good compromise if you're on a pitch that is generally straight forward, but has a somewhat short difficulty section is to keep a 3rd on the back of your harness so you can have 2 on a single daisy if you need it and then switch over to the other daisy as needed. You didn't ask, but I feel the same way about adjustable daisies-they are nice on harder stuff, but on easy aid I can move faster with regular daisies. 

Ted Pinson wrote:

I was in Zion earlier this week and took one look at Moonlight Buttress and realized I needed to get into aid climbing.  

Ironically I did Moonlight Buttress many years ago and while standing in aiders leapfrogging cams up a beautiful crack decided I was wasting my time and needed to up my free climbing game.

Two is much faster in my experience. 

The other big jump in speed came when I ditched the daisies, as Mac is showing in this vid. You don't realize how clustery the daisies are until you ditch them. I still use em on anything that isn't straight forward C1.

will ar wrote:

I'll echo what other people are saying here in that 2 aiders (I much prefer the ladder style as opposed to the alternating step) is adequate and for me faster on straight forward aid climbing. If you're aiding out steeper terrain or making big moves between sketchy placements 4 might be nice. I've found that sometimes a good compromise if you're on a pitch that is generally straight forward, but has a somewhat short difficulty section is to keep a 3rd on the back of your harness so you can have 2 on a single daisy if you need it and then switch over to the other daisy as needed. You didn't ask, but I feel the same way about adjustable daisies-they are nice on harder stuff, but on easy aid I can move faster with regular daisies. 

Ironically I did Moonlight Buttress many years ago and while standing in aiders leapfrogging cams up a beautiful crack decided I was wasting my time and needed to up my free climbing game.

Haha if I could climb 5.13 I would totally free climb it!

Ted Pinson wrote:

Hey everyone,

I was in Zion earlier this week and took one look at Moonlight Buttress and realized I needed to get into aid climbing.  I’ve been using Chris’ Big Walls book and was planning to practice basic aiding technique with a few ladders in the gym.  I’m curious to people’s thoughts on his 2-ladder “basic aid climbing” technique, as demonstrated here:

https://youtu.be/IVJSx6dqjno

It makes sense to me, but I don’t have enough experience to really make an informed judgement, so I’d like to learn more before I start dialing systems.

1) two ladders and no daisies works very well when doing c1 aid.

2) please don't aid up the moonlight buttress

I like 2 ladders for the C1 and C1+ stuff I've done. Once or twice I've wished I had a 3rd for something funky but I only own 2 and can't justify buying another. If you're using only 2, though, it's much better to have the ladder style than the etrier style.

For those with more aid experience:

On steep stuff or harder aid is 2 ladders + a fifi an adequate substitute for having 4 ladders?  Is a fifi a reasonable substitute for using daisies or are daisies really a necessity? 

mpech wrote:

1) two ladders and no daisies works very well when doing c1 aid.

2) please don't aid up the moonlight buttress

Why not?  Does it not go clean?

Auden Alsop wrote:

It goes very clean, a lot of people are worried about the very evident expansion of the crack, imo the widening is caused mostly by the constant weighting of cams by aid climbers, and also by free climbers taking and falling on gear. Big debate, but I think aid climbing should be taken to a minimum to preserve the route. I'm also not saying don't climb it, it's a classic

If we were to be fair, then everyone should have a lifetime limit of 1 aid go or 3 free goes or 10 free solo goes. But I don't see anyone advocating that; when it comes to preservation, climbing takes a pretty elitist approach...

I like 2 and a 3rd floater if need be... Granted I only climb easy aid and certainly nowhere as experienced as some of the other commenters on here, so I would probably listen to Russ or Hudon.

Yeah.  I was thinking of waiting until I could free up to 5.10 and just aid the 12 cruxes mostly for time/fun, but I didn’t realize it was an ethical concern.  I can see how the soft rock and popularity of the route would be a problem.

mpech wrote:

2) please don't aid up the moonlight buttress

I call BS.  Go aid it if you want.

I would also not encourage you to aid moonlight buttress. It’s a beautiful line, but it’s honestly kind of boring from the aid climbing perspective. There are several c2 and below aid routes nearby that are probably more engaging and won’t have free climbers trying to pass you.

What about not clipping the rope until you’re off the piece with your ladder?  Is that standard?  Seems like it would be freaky if you’re on marginal gear.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Why not?  Does it not go clean?

Because it is a high traffic, world class free climb that is trivial to aid - perfect cam placements virtually the whole way.  Aid parties take up the route for too long, especially if they are new to it and their systems are less efficient.  Any competent aid climber would be interested in something more challenging.  So I agree, this is not a good aid climb.

Kyle Edmondson wrote:

Because it is a high traffic, world class free climb that is trivial to aid - perfect cam placements virtually the whole way.  Aid parties take up the route for too long, especially if they are new to it and their systems are less efficient.  Any competent aid climber would be interested in something more challenging.  So I agree, this is not a good aid climb.

Ok...but how many people can free climb it?  It seems like this weird catch 22 where it’s too hard to free climb but too easy to be worth aiding.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Ok...but how many people can free climb it?  It seems like this weird catch 22 where it’s too hard to free climb but too easy to be worth aiding.

A lot.  It's not as hard as you think. For the record, my first attempt there was an aid party who had slept at the rocker blocker.  We started up as they began.  We caught them, at the rocker blocker.  We waited for three hours.  We bailed.  This is not uncommon.  

I have been on the route multiple times, between 5 and 10 years ago.  There were always free climbers on it.  I can only assume the traffic has increased.