BD Ultralight Lifespan - Are you mad? - We can do something about it!

I was talking to a guy who worked for marketing at wild country, apparently they thought the dyneema stem was a great idea and they were going to bring it to market but black diamond beat them to it so they cancelled the whole thing. 

I'm with you.  F black Diamond!

$129 per cam?  scoff!  they will never get my $$

Uh, you're also probably going to need a loop in the stem, so you have something to put the rivet through.  Unless you plan on just smashing the rivet through the fibers and hoping it holds? 

No loop needed my man, think it through a bit more. 

Kyle the slightest bit of research and you'll have your'e answer. I wish I was feeling more charitable but you understand. 

Ultralights camalots always seem a bit forced/desperate to me. Most climbers already used lighter single axel cams for small stuff (metolius, aliens or whatever)  and be apparetnly couldn't figure out how to update the c4 to compete with DMM (and now wildcountry) on weight for bigger pieces so they had to come out with an expensive disposable cam so their athletes wouldn't jump ship (see also: copying petzl on ice light ice screws).

Replaceable stem is a great idea. Would let you combine the dynema in the stem and the sewn loop to shave a few more grams and you could replace (and recycle) it as often as the sling allowing heavy use. You should design it and sell the idea to someone who can make a light cam with metal though!

FYI, if you want people (or BD) to believe you have some kind of design credibility, this attitude isn't helping.

We are all adults here. This has been covered already. Time to cut the bs my man. My request that you think it through a bit was totally reasonable. 

I'm holding an ultralight camalot in my hand right now.  I am aware that there is a rivet in a similar location on it.  If your proposal is simply "move the rivet a little bit so it's easier to access" that's fine, but it doesn't take 9 pages of arguing, a picture of a CAD model, and a bunch of vague responses to say "move the rivet a little bit".

Check page 3 for my explanation of moving the rivet a little bit. I'm sure there were at least a couple people who read that post and though "oh that is pretty simple". Sorry man. Seems to me you (and a few others) just like to talk shit. Shit talking only gets you so far. 

I checked my set of UL's and it's possible to remove the rivets from all of them. Without any modifications! 

The .4 will come straight out. It's close to the back of the lobes but it'll go. The rest of the cams you need to compress the lobes. Then punch out the rivet through the cavities. 

bttrrtRock Charles,

This is a fascinating idea you have! Not that I'd ever buy Ultralight C4's, but I like the idea behind it whether the math for the environmental aspect of it adds up or not. I encourage you to keep at this and don't let the critics drag you down to their level.

bttrrtRock Charles wrote:

Time to cut the bs my man.

Jake, whats wrong in the above. Honest question, how is colloquial terminology = to shit talking?  I don't hold anything against Kyle. If he was here I'd buy him a beer and give him a belay. 

That goes for anyone else too. 

bttrrtRock Charles wrote:

 Shit talking only gets you so far. 

You wrote that  

Glad to entertain Jim! (not snarky)

Thanks AC! Getting closer to a prototypable model. Got somethin' sweet brewing for the other thread too.

I wonder what happened to the guy with the heavy prototype? Why no pics?

Rocknice2 - Do you think it would be tough to re-rivet? Also may be tough to acquire a new stem, but you could make one. Keep the ideas flowing!

Jake, that's funny. I thought "my man" sounded way nicer than bro and I thought not adding it sounded cold. 

I know folks don't know me but I'm pretty light hearted. It's pretty obvious that folks are talking my comments more seriously than I intend. 

Like way back I said something about not supporting future for kids... and another time about hating the earth. I assumed people would get the jokes because the accusations are way too ridiculous. I'm sure some folks did, but they don't post because they get the jokes, give the benefit of the doubt, or wouldn't take it personally anyway.

I'm hoping folks are starting to get more stoked on the project and less on the doubting and shit talking. 

Update on design. I got the stem dimensions but the $20 digi caliper I bought is crap - bad idea i know. If any one out there can measure the axle diameter and center to center distance for the #2 3 and 4 that would be awesome. Pretty sure their exactly the same as the C4s so anyone out there with calipers that can help me out that would be sweet! Thanks in advance. 

Edit: outside to outside diameter or inside to inside diameter (not center to center) and axle OD.

bttrrtRock Charles wrote:

Rocknice2 - Do you think it would be tough to re-rivet? Also may be tough to acquire a new stem, but you could make one. Keep the ideas flowing!

No that is easy. What is going to be hard is removing the rivet. You can't just press it out without damaging the aluminum head. You'll need to drill but only deep to enough cut the rollover and don't touch the head. Then you can push it out. Put in a new stem and new rivet. You'll need the right tools (cheap) and jigs for every size of cam (expensive). Then you'll need a new stem assembly (very expensive).

If you look at the BD patent, they mention different attachment methods. One of which was a threaded pin but holy shit who wants that. 

After 10 years of climbing on a rack, there is more than just the software that wears out. Trigger wires get weak/frayed, cable shaft gets bent, nylon gets old but the worst is worn cam lobes. I consider a cam junk once the lobes have their teeth ground down. At this point the cam angles change enough to not know what they are.

After 30 years of climbing I'm on my 6th rack. When I buy a new rack the previous primary become the 2nd rack. So ten years sounds about right.

Rocknince (or any one else)- Sounds like youve dealt with similar rivets. Do you have an opinion on the rivets on the ends of the axles are formed? I want to do the same thing garage style. I am thinking about making a simple steel form and just pounding it over the axle with a hammer. I'll have to figure out how much to machine down the collar to have enough material left for the re-rivet (pretty simple) but I am wondering if applying heat before hand would be help.

Jim - any thought on this, seems like this could be in your realm (?). 

rocknice2 wrote:

After 10 years of climbing on a rack, there is more than just the software that wears out. Trigger wires get weak/frayed, cable shaft gets bent, nylon gets old but the worst is worn cam lobes. I consider a cam junk once the lobes have their teeth ground down. At this point the cam angles change enough to not know what they are

Why would that change the camming angle appreciably? And smooth cam lobes work just fine

bttrrtRock Charles wrote:

Rocknince (or any one else)- Sounds like youve dealt with similar rivets. Do you have an opinion on the rivets on the ends of the axles are formed? I want to do the same thing garage style. I am thinking about making a simple steel form and just pounding it over the axle with a hammer. I'll have to figure out how much to machine down the collar to have enough material left for the re-rivet (pretty simple) but I am wondering if applying heat before hand would be help.

Jim - any thought on this, seems like this could be in your realm (?). 

I´ve no idea whatsoever how Camalots are riveted, I don´t own any.