Thoughts on red pointing routes on prehung draws

D-Storm wrote:

This topic has definitely been discussed ad nauseam in numerous MP threads through the years, with unwavering results: pretty much no one cares if you redpoint a route on pre-hung draws (especially sport routes); that is, except for noobs and traddies who are eager to prove how hardcore they are, and/or believe that climbing lost its soul in the '80s when the expectation started to change that all routes must be done onsight and ground-up no matter what, thus ensuring that climbing standards would stagnate at 5.11. Modern consensus is that there is a time and place for all styles of climbing. Of greater concern is how you present your accomplishments in your Instagram posts: did you actually send the route or is it a photo of the one moment you weren't hanging on the rope accompanied by inspirational hashtags in the caption? 

Now, whether you should rappel to clean a route or lower from the anchors—there's a controversy! (Not.)

But by all means, people should chime on this thread as well. It's always a good chuckle to see people reveal their ignorance with gusto and confidence. (I'll bet a used TCU that someone accuses me of doing just that here; claimant pays shipping.)

Not all heroes wear capes.

Jason Todd wrote:

I used to think about this all the time, when I was aspiring to be some mythical mountain trad rad.

Now that I got a stick clip, belay glasses and a gri-gri, I could give two shits about whether the draws are hung or not. Even less if it is someone else's "send".

I've stick clipped through hard cruxes more times this year than I can count. On my projecting days, what I'm doing is sometimes barely climbing. I might as well be a f$^%ing window washer...

Jason Halladay wrote:

 All that said, I do feel a bit more personal satisfaction if the send involves me hanging the draws as I go. This is a personal feeling that I don't intend to push on others and don't even feel a need to mention except as a footnote in my climbing log book. 

This.

Even while climbing onsight/flash - I like when I'm the first to go and have to hang the draw. If I do onsight, then I feel extra good about it, a little like when you foot pops off unexpectedly but you somehow still manage to hold on.

Taylor Spiegelberg wrote:

I might as well be a f$^%ing window washer...

Woah now... You got something against window washers? There are some pretty hard ass window washers out there. They might have even put up the route you're flailing on...

Standard bolt hangers have two major flaws-

they should come with a cable draw already quick-linked in place and

the upper hanger surface should be roughened so it's easier to stand on them.

The other day I finally completed a project I'd been working on for a while. It's about 140 feet long, with many hard sections and I was proud of the effort. Like most routes 5.12+ and harder at my local area, it has fixed draws. 

That evening, I told my wife I had sent. She replied, "You mean you pinkpointed..."  She was right, and I was crushed.

ViperScale . wrote:

What was the point of drilling bolts on lead if you could just place nuts, cams, hexes, etc? I know alot of bolted on lead routes where I live and they want to leave the 50ft runouts because it was done that way on lead and the runout is there because they did it in boots with no climbing shoes and there was only 1 spot on lead they were able to drill the bolt. So there would be no point in drilling bolts on lead if you could just place a cam.

You're right in that bolting was to protect routes that couldn't be protected with removable gear. The point I was trying to make was that bolts at that time did not necessarily mean sport climbing. The term sport climbing was coined to define the approach to climbing, namely rap bolting and hang dogging. There were plenty of routes with bolts that were not sport climbs.

Tradiban wrote:

Why not stick to bouldering then and stop destroying rock with bolts?

There will be a day when you stop stirring the pot on MP.

And it will be good.

bernard wolfe wrote:

agree

you are using fixed gear to relieve yourself (by degree) of the physical effort required to make the ascent

Now were talking, bolts are aid too since you are using fixed gear to relieve yourself (by degree) of the physical effort of drilling and placing the bolt required to make the ascent.  Even a hole drilled for a removeable bolt is aid, we need to be drilling a new hole every time we climb a route!

Everett wrote:

There will be a day when you stop stirring the pot on MP.

And it will be good.

Been doing it since before MP existed, so I doubt it.

Without me these forums would be one big circle-jerk of dudes agreeing but pretending not to.

Now that there's some good climbing gyms out there perhaps sport climbing should stay indoors, I think the indoor environment is more aligned to the sport climbing ethos anyway.

Tradiban wrote:

Why not stick to bouldering then and stop destroying rock with bolts?

Yep its confirmed, your gym sucks.

Jerry432 wrote:

I am a relatively new climber, 8 years climbing to be exact, and hear the occasional opinions on red pointing routes with draws that are pre-hung. Some of the opinions are; who gives a shit, doesn't count as a red point, purple point etc. I personally don't care or see a difference especially if I am working the route and hung the draws to begin, or if its at my max grade push. This is a rather meaningless subject but  I just wanted to hear some opinions about it. also I am unsure if this has been a topic of discussion in the past so I apologize if it revives old subject matter. 

Some of the opinions are; 

• Some say who gives a shit.
• Some say it doesn't count as a red point, purple point etc.
• Some personally don't care or see a difference especially if I am working the route and hung the draws to begin, or if its at my max grade push.
• Some say this is a rather meaningless subject.
• Some say they are unsure if this has even been a topic of discussion in the past while simultaneously stating they've heard people discuss their opinions on this topic.
• Some say they apologize if the topic revives old subject matter but not that they apologize for not bothering to do any work to prevent the apology in the first place.
• Others say you can type "prehung draws" into the search bar at the top of this page and receive 53 results
• Others swoop in, post a snarky post like this, uncheck the "notify on site" box at the top or bottom of the thread page, and never read the thread again. 

Four pages in less than 24 hours.  But nobody cares!

kevin deweese wrote:

Some of the opinions are; 

• Some say who gives a shit.
• Some say it doesn't count as a red point, purple point etc.
• Some personally don't care or see a difference especially if I am working the route and hung the draws to begin, or if its at my max grade push.
• Some say this is a rather meaningless subject.
• Some say they are unsure if this has even been a topic of discussion in the past while simultaneously stating they've heard people discuss their opinions on this topic.
• Some say they apologize if the topic revives old subject matter but not that they apologize for not bothering to do any work to prevent the apology in the first place.
• Others say you can type "prehung draws" into the search bar at the top of this page and receive 53 results
• Others swoop in, post a snarky post like this, uncheck the "notify on site" box at the top or bottom of the thread page, and never read the thread again. 

Thanks Kevin form Oakland. Your feedback is greatly appreciated and god speed on all of your top rope crushing adventures. I have a feeling you will read this again my dear. 

Greg D wrote:

Four pages in less than 24 hours.  But nobody cares!

But I do care that everyone knows how much I don't care!

The term "redpoint" came from Germany, and they didn't give a shit whether draws were prehung or not. "Pinkpoint" is a term that insecure Yanks invented more than a decade later. There is your history lesson. 

the schmuck wrote:

The term "redpoint" came from Germany, and they didn't give a shit whether draws were prehung or not. "Pinkpoint" is a term that insecure Yanks invented more than a decade later. There is your history lesson. 

Hobo Greg wrote:

Personally, I always unclip, clip to harness, and then reclip to bolt. But that's just like my opinion man.

If it's permadraws, I do the same. Usually I can undo the quicklink by hand. I add a letter grade to my send if I have to get the wrench out.

Taylor Spiegelberg wrote:

If it's permadraws, I do the same. Usually I can undo the quicklink by hand. I add a letter grade to my send if I have to get the wrench out.

I also carry a hand drill, mimic the drilling of the bolt and THEN clip.

Taylor Spiegelberg wrote:

If it's permadraws, I do the same. Usually I can undo the quicklink by hand. I add a letter grade to my send if I have to get the wrench out.

Using a wrench completely negates the send.  Might as well not even call it climbing, total slap in the face of the pioneers who came before.

More four-plan for you.