Edelrid OHM

Ice4life wrote:

It CAN'T be used with trad. Has to be a bolt, asked a rep that when I demo'd it. 

That would be outside the list of approved uses, but, theoretically, I don't see why it couldn't be used while trad climbing.

Ice4life wrote:

It CAN'T be used with trad. Has to be a bolt, asked a rep that when I demo'd it. 

Does it explode if you try? Turn on its owner and attack? Asking for a friend. 

Am curious, what would the Ohm do if it is only connected to the rope?  ... like if its’ connection to the rock failed? Am studiously avoiding using “Bolt” or “pro”. :-)

Would the Ohm just slide down the rope to the belayer? Would it remain attached to the rope at that point and so rise up as the climber is lowered? If it does rise up, what tends to happen when the next protection point keeps the Ohm from continuing up with the rope?

(I do not own an Ohm to try it, or the experience to just be familiar enough to know the answer(s).)

Ice4life wrote:

It wasn't designed to be used on gear. It was designed specifically for use on a bolt. asked a rep that when I demo'd it. 

Fixed that for you.

It can be used on gear, provided you have a piece or multiple pieces that can be pulled in any and every direction without failure. And one assumes the risk that, should the gear rip, the results could be very bad. 

As a summary of the below, I think it is quite unwise to consider the Ohm for general gear placements by the average leader - even placements thought of as "omni-directional".

Because doing so adds significant complexity to the protection system, some of which requires a new way of thinking to avoid new issues for something that would likely be seldom done (?).  That said, the occasional (and extremely rare?) set of 'natural' pro could function much as a bolt though with careful thought for each circumstance.

Getting into details (Super long! - if inclined, probably best viewed on a desktop-sized screen) ...

Consider the environment of the average gear placement(s), what it "sees" once set  on lead and until it is removed (skip these five bullets if that environment is familiar).  

• It may need to be an omni-directional placement to avoid starting a zippering out of gear, especially if it is the first piece placed on lead.
• Rope movement can act on it when the leader moves past the piece.  
• Again it can get tugged on a bit as the leader pulls up the excess rope and then belays the follower.
• Add to the above a leader fall, where the piece usually sees a bit outward and then hard downward force if it is the top piece.  
• And it can get pulled outward as the rope catches a fall by the follower.

A leader focuses on setting gear and whether to sling it long so a lead fall plus the above 'tugging' around do not extract the piece.

And it is generally accepted that climbers should be suspicious of gear that has stopped a lead fall, inspecting it before trusting to another fall on it.  Because such a piece may have moved out of place and so be compromised and fail on the next fall.

Having an Ohm attached to gear complicates the system by adding ...

• Upward and outward tugs if the Ohm "short ropes" the leader, perhaps vigorously in unfortunate circumstances such as described by Patrick S on page 8.
• Unusually hard upward pull when helping catch a leader fall.
• Possibly being difficult to re-inspect the gear after, say, a lead fall (i.e., high enough forces to warrant a re-inspection before trusting to it again).

Note:  It is easy to underestimate the potential fall out from gear failing. When the Ohm is attached to that gear, the belayer may be caught unprepared for the very sharp increase in force.

And I'll go out on a limb to say that it would be unwise to add in a sling to minimize jostling of the gear (as is otherwise often done on lead).  Because the Ohm could then in a lead fall be subjected to harder-than-designed-for impacts against the rock (slinging also translates to more movement of the lighter belayer - no bueno).  And the sling-amplified jostling under lesser forces could allow the Ohm to work its way into, say, cracks having all kinds of unexpected consequences.

Last, if you've read this far, I think it is unproductive to ask folks here to try it out on gear and report back.  Because the experience will be very limited by the actual set of circumstances and so will not fully address the complexity in the general case.  Again, the occasional (and extremely rare?) set of 'natural' pro could function much as a bolt though with careful thought for each circumstance.

Bill Lawry wrote:

Am curious, what would the Ohm do if it is only connected to the rope?  ... like if its’ connection to the rock failed? Am studiously avoiding using “Bolt” or “pro”. :-)

Would the Ohm just slide down the rope to the belayer? Would it remain attached to the rope at that point and so rise up as the climber is lowered? If it does rise up, what tends to happen when the next protection point keeps the Ohm from continuing up with the rope?

(I do not own an Ohm to try it, or the experience to just be familiar enough to know the answer(s).)

It just slides down the rope to the belayer. 

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

It just slides down the rope to the belayer. 

Thanks - for me, that probably closes out one possible down side to having the pro fail to which an Ohm is attached.

For completeness, at least one down side still remains which is that the belayer may be unprepared for the sharp increase in force - though some will say a brake-assisting belay device mitigates the consequences to the leader

Bill Lawry wrote:

Thanks - for me, that probably closes out one possible down side to having the pro fail to which an Ohm is attached.

For completeness, at least one down side still remains which is that the belayer may be unprepared for the sharp increase in force - though some will say a brake-assisting belay device mitigates the consequences to the leader

It's really heavy, though.  Add in a sizable cam, and it might suck pretty hard for the belayer to get thwacked with the mess of metal zipping down the rope toward them!  

I still want to try it out on trad gear just for fun because I a naturally curious sort.  Like I said upthread, I wouldn't actually use it for trad, and I would only test it where the other placements were bolts to back it up.

As for the sudden pull if it fails, I think that is a good thing to bring up.  I don't change my stance , Ohm or no Ohm.  That means always at attention with slightly bent knees, both hands on brake side unless feeding slack and hip forward towards wall to naturally position my foot to push off the wall if needed.  The Ohm is great, but you shouldn't let bad form creep in and expect the Ohm to make up the difference.  It's like with Gri Gris, great break-assist devices until people get sloppy because they over-rely on them.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

It's really heavy, though.  Add in a sizable cam, and it might suck pretty hard for the belayer to get thwacked with the mess of metal zipping down the rope toward them!  

I still want to try it out on trad gear just for fun because I a naturally curious sort.  Like I said upthread, I wouldn't actually use it for trad, and I would only test it where the other placements were bolts to back it up.

As for the sudden pull if it fails, I think that is a good thing to bring up.  I don't change my stance , Ohm or no Ohm.  That means always at attention with slightly bent knees, both hands on brake side unless feeding slack and hip forward towards wall to naturally position my foot to push off the wall if needed.  The Ohm is great, but you shouldn't let bad form creep in and expect the Ohm to make up the difference.  It's like with Gri Gris, great break-assist devices until people get sloppy because they over-rely on them.

If you're gonna use it on gear, I would suggest building an anchor for your first placement and puttign the ohm on that to decrease the likelihood of failure. 1 downward pull piece and 2 upward pull pieces. And also, making sure both leader and belayer are aware of and accept the additional risks 

I see a lot of speculation from people who've never used one or even seen one in person. 

A few DAV (German Alpine Club) owned climbing gyms in Bavaria have one hanging at the start of every route. They work well. If you consider weighing little people down with bags of sand a bit distasteful, this would be class. 

For the reason stated of the cam would flip since it will change direction of pull the complete other direction

Ice4life wrote:

For the reason stated of the cam would flip since it will change direction of pull the complete other direction

A single cam could be a problem. 

Up and down movement can cause them to ‘walk’. That may cause them to open up out of any good placement. It can also cause the to become irretrievably stuck.

Things that could definitely cause a single cam to ‘walk’ when using an Ohm:

* fall on lead

* taking higher up on the route, or lowering to try the moves again

* short roping by the Ohm

What could make the walking even worse is if the climber then gets off the rope and if the weight of the Ohm can then pull the cam’s stem back down. This cycle could repeat making things all the more uncertain.

Also, most trad climbers I know are suspicious if any pro moves and want to re-inspect the placement before really relying on it again.

Using the Ohm on gear really takes good trad knowledge and even then could bite your ass.

Bill Lawry wrote:

A single cam could be a problem. 

Up and down movement can cause them to ‘walk’. That may cause them to open up out of any good placement. It can also cause the to become irretrievably stuck.

Things that could definitely cause a single cam to ‘walk’ when using an Ohm:

* fall on lead

* taking higher up on the route, or lowering to try the moves again

* short roping by the Ohm

What could make the walking even worse is if the climber then gets off the rope and if the weight of the Ohm can then pull the cam’s stem back down. This cycle could repeat making things all the more uncertain.

Also, most trad climbers I know are suspicious if any pro moves and want to re-inspect the placement before really relying on it again.

Using the Ohm on gear really takes good trad knowledge and even then could bite your ass.

For what it's worth, I've never been short-roped while using the Ohm.  I have noticed that, when clipping the first bolt after clipping the Ohm, you need to pull the rope straight up; if you pull it out too far (away from the wall) it can cause resistance in the Ohm.  Pull it straight up, no problem.

B Owens wrote:

For what it's worth, I've never been short-roped while using the Ohm. 

Depends on the size of the rope. I tend to pull fast when clipping and short roping was a problem on a 10.2 mm Metolius gym rope but not a problem when I switched to a 9.7mm Lightening Pro.

dino74 wrote:

Depends on the size of the rope. I tend to pull fast when clipping and short roping was a problem on a 10.2 mm Metolius gym rope but not a problem when I switched to a 9.7mm Lightening Pro.

Good point.  I've only ever used it with a 9.9mm or smaller.  

My wife and I have it. We have a 50 pound weight difference between us.  It works great for falls but can but very annoying.  It will short rope you if you try to clip to quickly and if it locks up while you are being lowered it’s painfully slow to get back to the ground. 

Before if I gave her an unexpected lead fall she would get yanked up and slammed into the wall, now if I fall it pulls her a few steps in.

If’s my wife was more serious about climbing it would without a doubt be worth it.  But since she only climbs in the gym once a week Andy I could just top rope with her instead it’s kinda wasted with us. 

Ryan Kelley wrote:

My wife and I have it. We have a 50 pound weight difference between us.  It works great for falls but can but very annoying.  It will short rope you if you try to clip to quickly and if it locks up while you are being lowered it’s painfully slow to get back to the ground. 

Before if I gave her an unexpected lead fall she would get yanked up and slammed into the wall, now if I fall it pulls her a few steps in.

If’s my wife was more serious about climbing it would without a doubt be worth it.  But since she only climbs in the gym once a week Andy I could just top rope with her instead it’s kinda wasted with us. 

My partner weighs 80-90lbs less than I do.  She gets a huge benefit from me using the Ohm and we haven't experienced any of the negatives that you mentioned.  As the poster above me mentioned, it would seem that rope diameter makes a big difference.  We have never used ours with a rope larger than 9.9mm.  I'm curious to hear what size rope you were using when you had these issues?  Edelrid lists the appropriate range of rope diameters as 8.9mm to 11mm, but the maximum practical range of appropriate rope diameters is probably much smaller.

B Owens wrote:

My partner weighs 80-90lbs less than I do.  She gets a huge benefit from me using the Ohm and we haven't experienced any of the negatives that you mentioned.  As the poster above me mentioned, it would seem that rope diameter makes a big difference.  We have never used ours with a rope larger than 9.9mm.  I'm curious to hear what size rope you were using when you had these issues?  Edelrid lists the appropriate range of rope diameters as 8.9mm to 11mm, but the maximum practical range of appropriate rope diameters is probably much smaller.

Whatever my gym hands out for a lead rope. 

I watched a pair climb in the gym with an Ohm this evening. It worked fine.

But it did wiggle around and tug quite a bit on the bolt hanger - more than I usually see for the first gear on a trad lead.

Also with short roping, if you decide to take, or fall, usually requires a flick to undo the lock up, also, haven't tried it yet, but always wondered if a Dyno would short you and cause you to fall. Not that I worry about that crap, cause I don't Dyno... But it'd be funny to see someone leap for a move, only to have it engage and deny the send.