Equalizer, or Webolette - Lack of shelf an issue?

eli poss wrote:

Add into the equation any type of self-rescue...

Out of curiosity, how many times have you had to self-rescue over how many years/number of routes?

 or another follower and/or small or non-existance belay ledge and having multiple clip in points because almost mandatory. Add in hanging the rack, water, pack, shoes, etc. on the anchor and trying to keep everything organized and clutter-free and it can become a nightmare without several clipping points.

Maybe you're carrying too much? Out of everything you listed, only the pack really needs an anchor point - easily accomplished with a tether on it to almost anything. Everything else is either in the pack, over your shoulder (rack), or on your harness. And why are you wasting time on a multipitch taking off your shoes?

Yeah, hanging belays can be a bit more of a cluster. Again, out of curiosity, how many hanging/semi-hanging belays do you deal with in a year of climbing?

Marc801 C wrote:

Out of curiosity, how many times have you had to self-rescue over how many years/number of routes?

Maybe you're carrying too much? Out of everything you listed, only the pack really needs an anchor point - easily accomplished with a tether on it to almost anything. Everything else is either in the pack, over your shoulder (rack), or on your harness. And why are you wasting time on a multipitch taking off your shoes?

Yeah, hanging belays can be a bit more of a cluster. Again, out of curiosity, how many hanging/semi-hanging belays do you deal with in a year of climbing?

Well, I started to rescue myself when I fell and broke my ankle but my partner soon started to assist in the self-rescue. Other than that, I've never actually needed to self rescue but I have performed some self-rescue techniques for other functions a handful of times in my 4.5ish years climbing. And also peformed several self-rescue techniques just for practice. 

Perhaps I tend to seek out semi-hanging belays or routes with small belay ledges, but I seem to encounter them quite a bit. Just last week at T-wall I climbed a 3 pitch route in a group of 3 and the first belay was a small ledge that could fit 1 person, and the second belay was a small ledge that could fit 1 person and then another person crammed into a little alcove.

I really like the webolette, esp. for a party of three or for walls. I have never missed the so-called "shelf". They are also great for slinging boulders or large trees. 

Cheers from Osaka,

Japan-john 

One trick is to use a big locker in the masterpoint and hang other lockers off of that one.

mbk wrote:

One trick is to use a big locker in the masterpoint and hang other lockers off of that one.

I can see that without other options.

Even so, suggest not letting yourself get sucked down a path that avoids habitually having an obvious place for partners to clip into that is software.  Or maybe I'm just too squeamish about metal on metal?

Bill Lawry wrote:

Or maybe I'm just too squeamish about metal on metal?

There is nothing wrong with metal on metal. It's another myth like microfractures.

... well, in other applications, there is at least that other issue of two non-locking biners readily detaching when jostled.

Edit to add: And at a belay anchor, it adds to the cluster of lockers which goes against the "keep it simple" principle.   Squeamishness can have many sources. :-)

Marc801 C wrote:

Apparently it's an auto-correct on my machines.

For the record, I’m a longtime web-o-lette user and I find dork-o-lette hilarious. Also, your auto-correct claim cracks me up.

I don’t really know what a “shelf” is either. I’ve never missed it. Full on cordelettes are bulky as hell, I guess it makes sense there’s a whole piece of furniture in there I was “missing”.

Bill Lawry wrote:

... well, in other applications, there is at least that other issue of two non-locking biners readily detaching when jostled.

But that really doesn’t have anything to do with metal on metal. 

Actually, a large carabiner as power point is an advantage at hanging belays, because if the belay is weighted, it can be hard to clip in to the deformed power point and tensioned shelf.

Marc801 C wrote:

But that really doesn’t have anything to do with metal on metal. 

They are all metal-to-metal circumstances.  

To Richard's point, the frequency of a weighted-shut power point is pretty seldom for me.  If I were to use a wide-bail biner as a master point as a common practice, I think there are down sides to this when cold, the new person, in the dark, striving for efficiency and not weighted (i.e., the "keep it simple" that I previously mentioned).  YMMV

And so much like most things for me, it was a suggestion to avoid - not intended as hard rule.

Edit to add: Others of course can instead advocate the biner-as-power-point as a general rule.

Bill Lawry wrote:

They are all metal-to-metal circumstances.  

Inappropriate tools for the task or inappropriate usage of said tools. Again, metal-to-metal is irrelevant and not the root cause.

And so much like most things for me, it was a suggestion to avoid - not intended as hard rule.

+1

As advocated by myself and many others - situational awareness and application of general concepts and principles to the specific situation is far far preferable to depending on a set of rules learned by rote.

Marc801 C wrote:

Inappropriate tools for the task or inappropriate usage of said tools. Again, metal-to-metal is irrelevant and not the root cause.

From my view, this is more about incorrect assumptions that were made upstream. Edit: Heh, and now I'm not sure what you meant with these two sentences.  I think I got lost with the words "root cause".

Bill Lawry wrote:

From my view, this is more about incorrect assumptions that were made upstream. Edit: Heh, and now I'm not sure what you meant with these two sentences.  I think I got lost with the words "root cause".

It was referencing your comment about two non-locking biners twisting against each other and becoming detached. The root cause of that detachment was in not using locking biners* in a situation where they could twist against themselves, not that it was metal-to-metal.

*: or another solution which could well have included a soft attachment among the options.

Ok, ok - well, even the non-locker on non-locker I would say isn't an absolute no no.  Just another thing to usually avoid.

And my purpose in bringing up non-locker on non-locker was just to say that metal-on-metal (a term I used that started your-n-my back and forth here) does not necessarily mean just micro-fractures (your assumption about what I meant when I said I was squeamish about metal-on-metal).

coldfinger wrote:

Howdy,

As long as your sling, cord or webolette is long enough.....

You can also tie another overhand knot to create another pocket in your anchor.

So that's a benefit of having a longer anchoring sling/cord: you can use more than one overhand knot to help keep a busy anchor tidy. 

This is great. Thank you for the idea.

Caleb Schwarz wrote:

https://youtu.be/2q2PdnAAy6w

A webolette-style anchor with a 5.5mm titan cord has all of the advantages of the webolette-style, while bring very light, easy to handle, and is very small on the harness. As long as you always clove to the masterpoint, it's awesome.

Thank you for your reply. If we go with Chris's suggestion of 20 feet of Titan cord you'd be paying more than a 10 foot Webolette and almost the same as a 12 foot. 7mm nylon cord would be more cost effective but more bulky. I think if I was going down this route I'd probably just buy a Webolette.

For those of you that believe that a shelf is not necessary, or never missed having one... How do you deal with needing multiple attachment points for the leader, two followers, a guide mode belay device, and any possible gear to hang up like shoes, packs and whatever else?  

The more I read about the Webolette, the more I like the idea as opposed to my cordalette. I know a lot of people don't believe in a product to solve problems, but this seems to be just that. In Tom Moyer's testing the material seems unusually strong with a figure eight knot, resists flexing and bending fatigue, can hold bend knots making a loop just fine which is not the norm for polyethylene (dyneema, spectra, dynex). It only lacks in friction knot strength which is still probably enough to ascend a rope, just not enough to haul in Z-rig type applications. Mountain Tools even claims the knots are easier to take apart than a traditional 7 or 8mm cordalette. 

anotherclimber wrote:

Regarding your specific question, the short answer is practice. I regularly attach myself, a belay device, and two followers to the masterpoint. It takes some forethought and organization but is quite doable. Think of it like this: whatever is clipped to the masterpoint should be a reflection of where things are positioned at the stance. For example, if I'm leading the next pitch and it leaves the anchor to the left, I'll clove into the masterpoint and then place the plaquette on the right (which effectively puts me on the left). Since I'll be leaving to the left, my followers will need to be on the right. So I look down and note the two ropes tied to the front of my harness. If the blue rope is tied to the left of my belay loop and the red rope is tied to the right, I'll generally bring the followers up and then the blue rope climber gets cloved next to the plaquette with the red rope climber getting cloved on the right.

At some point this means that: I'm the leftmost carabiner in the masterpoint, then there's a plaquette, then then blue rope climber, then the red rope climber. Once the followers are off belay and the plaquette is removed, I'm on the left (ready to lead the next pitch in that direction) and my followers are on the left, ordered the same way that they are clipped into the anchor, blue rope on the left (or in the middle, depending on how you think about it) and red rope on the right.

The shelf can be used if it's helpful for organization, but is rarely strictly required. 

Everything else you've mentioned can generally just be clipped to a single component for the anchor. However, I don't tend to find it that arduous to wear my pack while at the stance; if it is, perhaps I've brought too much stuff. Similarly, I rarely need to remove my shoes at a belay. This can chew up precious time and is often remedied by simply wearing appropriate shoes.