Belayer goes down on a multi-pitch

Greg D wrote:

I agree with your general sentiment.  But, most likely, they will insist you stay putt.  They really have no idea your skill level, seriousness of injury, will you make the injury worse, make the situation worse, etc.  

Well, that certainly may be true in many cases, and I imagine particularly in locations without climbing-specific SAR groups. That has not been my experience, on both ends of the phone. But, my own experience is only a very small sample size, and learning who you would call ICE, what type of organization it is, climbing experience/skill level/etc, what the likely outcome of that phone call would be - (would it be more like my post or more like yours?) can help you make the decision of who and whether and when to call. 

In the case of having a competent climbing rescue team on the other end of the phone, you can communicate to them your skill level, seriousness of injury, what training you have to make that assessment or share symptoms/MOI/vitals so they can judge, what your rescue plan is, etc. if you sound like you don't know WTF you're talking about or your rescue plan is not feasible, they'll tell you to stay put. And if you wouldn't have stayed put otherwise, and you should, maybe good thing you called? 

But all this is assuming you have climbing/SAR/first responder experts on the other end of the line, not a panicky or overconfident untrained sheriff's office or fire dept that handles climbing/wilderness rescues by default - which, may be too much to hope for in a lot of the country? 

So perhaps we can find common ground by saying "it depends"? :)

Em Cos wrote:

"If you have a phone and a signal, call" is terrible advice because you might not have a phone and a signal? 

Weird response.  You seem like a "stand up" poster.  But, those are not my words even if you put them in quotes.  

What I did say was "Make the call for sure if you bring a phone climbing.  They don't always work.  What to do next?"

If there is any remote chance of a neck or back injury, you probably shouldn't be moving the injured person anyway.  Depends on how they are situated at the moment.

Greg D wrote:

Weird response.  You seem like a "stand up" poster.  But, those are not my words even if you put them in quotes.  

What I did say was "Make the call for sure if you bring a phone climbing.  They don't alway work.  What to do next?"

Yes, you did - but not originally (I assume you added that after I replied, which is why that was not in your post that I quoted in my post), apologies for replying too quickly and muddying up the different trains of thought!

And I did not mean to say those were your words just by putting them in quotes - I would've used the post quote function if that were my intention - it was my attempt at summarizing OLH's advice. I just meant to distinguish that comment from the rest of my statement as they were two different voices, so to speak. Maybe the single quote would've been more appropriate?

Regardless I think we're closer to the same page than it may have at first seemed. :)

We probably agree fairly closely.  

To the op, if the injury is serious enough to cause loss of consciousness, getting to him/her fast is really important.  A slumped over person can have a blocked air way or may be losing blood fast!!!!    and may only have a few minutes at best to spare!!!!  If you make a phone call, make it super brief.  Every second counts.  Your partner is dying.

Greg D wrote:

We probably agree fairly closely.  

To the op, if the injury is serious enough to cause loss of consciousness, getting to him/her fast is really important.  A slumped over person can have a blocked air way or may be losing blood fast!!!!    and may only have a few minutes at best to spare!!!!  If you make a phone call, make it super brief.  Every second counts.  Your partner is dying.

Thanks for making the point about someone who is unconscious. "Unconscious" climber/belayer rescue threads have been in here before. People toss that out, with zero realisation how quickly the whole thing can go south.

I stand by calling it in. If you can't zip down to the unconscious one very, very quickly, two more minutes won't matter, and may save your hide. Bad decisions can cascade rather quickly.

Ten minutes from town doesn't matter one whit if a technical rescue is in the offing. You cannot carry that out single handed. Calling in something idiotic doesn't kill people. Bravado can.

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

People toss that out, with zero realisation how quickly the whole thing can go south.

I stand by calling it in. If you can't zip down to the unconscious one very, very quickly, two more minutes won't matter, and may save your hide. Bad decisions can cascade rather quickly.

Ten minutes from town doesn't matter one whit if a technical rescue is in the offing. You cannot carry that out single handed. Calling in something idiotic doesn't kill people.

Best, OLH

Damn, ad hominem attacks are so easy!

Again, to Helen's point, and for some circumstances, the party will know in very short order that they need to call for self-rescue (if they can).  But here is an example that was not such a case, in order to touch on some points previously brought up in this thread ... 

After one self-rescue from a lead fall accident in 2010, a knowledge-able SAR person recommended next time doing what Em Cos suggested:  call and let them know you are self-rescuing so they can at least make some calls to folks to stand at the ready.  It sounded good and probably is a good idea.  But doing so will add outside pressure during the self rescue.

On a 2015 self-rescue from pitch 5 of 7, we called to let them know we were self-rescuing - and we got ourselves out before needing headlamps.  There were 3 climbing pairs in our group.  Here is what we received / learned from SAR while we were self rescuing; note that I was not the one on the phone but have reason to believe this is accurate:

* no help evaluating the situation and the capability of our team to self-rescue - not that we asked for that kind of help; and I don't think they can formally advise you to self-rescue due to liability; there may be other nuances here I don't understand;

* no official commitment to call other SAR folks to be on standby; they couldn't officially start that ball rolling until we officially called for outside rescue;

* got some information about the first steps SAR would probably take if we did call for outside rescue; that discussion went as far is the first responder getting down to us from the top of the wall;

* no mandate from SAR for us to stay put until they got there; they had no control as we had not called for self-rescue;

* felt a lot of pressure from SAR to make the call for outside rescue due to limited daylight concerns (very understandable);

* if we did call for outside rescue, we would have no control over what happened until we were in the parking lot and clearly able to sign a waiver; I actually learned this from the post-2010-accident discussions.

And we did keep in touch with SAR from time to time until we were back at the cars.  And we later learned that the person had indeed informally called other SAR folks to forewarn.

Old lady H wrote:

Bravado can [kill].

I humbly second that sentiment.  In all three self-rescues, it was definitely important to guard against making decisions based on egos that were truly present each time.

Rather, make the decision based on the circumstances and capabilities of the team (which could be just you but hopefully involves your injured partner).  And making the decision can take time since a brand new and unfamiliar reality was just born out in front of you both.

Meanwhile, practice self-rescue and refresh on wilderness first aid.   :-)

A few factors to add to the discussion:

1. If you have a phone and your partner has been knocked unconscious, you should at least attempt to make a call regardless of whether your phone indicates you do or do not have service or life in your battery. If you call 911, your phone will access any available cell towers. It is not limited to towers owned or leased by your specific provider. This drastically increases the amount of land that is covered by cell service. Even if your phone appears to be completely drained of battery life, all cell phones are required by law to store a small amount of battery life that is designated specifically for emergency calls. This means you may still have enough life to call 911.

2. I would highly encourage everyone to learn and practice self-rescue techniques, but even if you're an ER doctor you're not necessarily going to be able to properly address the array of medical issues that are likely to accompany injuries associated with being knocked out. The best case scenario is to safely get your partner off the wall while SAR is on their way to help. They will likely have medical equipment that far exceeds what is in a typical first aid kit. They can also get a helicopter in there. This will likely save your partner's life if he/she has significant trauma.

Amarius, no attack was meant on Greg. Greg, sorry if it came across that way.

To address what you bolded, a lot of these threads in the past, have someone unconscious. But, as Greg points out, you may have a very short time to help them. Fifteen minutes may be overstating it. I don't think people realize that, or they wouldn't be trying to work out all these rope scenarios.

At that point? No, two more minutes won't matter, if you've already blown ten futzing with how to do something you've never tried before with the rope, and you aren't down there yet.

Let's say you are both at the base, ten minutes from town. Can you resuscitate them? How long can you carry on CPR by yourself? Can you carry them down the scramble to the parking lot? You aren't in the parking lot at Walmart. Help is ten minutes away. Call. A twisted ankle? Yeah, maybe you can hobble out. Maybe not. But you aren't going to die while you work it out and decide.

Last, yeah, call even if you've done something stupid and deserve to sit there in the snow. Somebody somewhere probably still loves your sorry ass, and none of us actually want you to come to harm.

And yes, I do think people need to exercise some responsibility and not put first responders and SAR folks at risk needlessly. But, that's what they do, and I'm more than a little proud of the one I know very, very well.

Best, OLH

I never have a prusik. I guess you could make an equalized anchor, clip your PAS into the rope for pro while you downclimb.

Old lady H wrote:

Amarius, no attack was meant on Greg. Greg, sorry if it came across that way.

Attack?  Didn't notice.  We are good, Helen.  Fist bump.

Helen, what I don't like to hear is you down playing the essence of time regarding an unconscious partner.  '10 minutes, 12 minutes, oh, what's the difference.'  I'll tell you what the difference is.  If this partner has a blocked air way, 2 minutes is life and death, 10 minutes, well, its too late.  

I've been in this situation in real life, not some internet practice do this, do that scenario.  Definitely the worst climbing accident/human accident I've ever witnessed and assisted in rescue.  I leader took a 100 foot ground fall landing more or less head first.  There was no way he could have survived.  He appeared to be dead.  His air way was definitely blocked.  Fortunately, we were able to get to him in less than 2 minutes and open his air way.  Somehow, he was still alive.  4 minutes, he would have been dead.  If a leader is going to take 10 minutes to rappel back down 110 feet to their belayer, they shouldn't be climbing multi pitch.

Greg D wrote:

Helen, what I don't like to hear is you down playing the essence of time regarding an unconscious partner.  '10 minutes, 12 minutes, oh, what's the difference.'  I'll tell you what the difference is.  If this partner has a blocked air way, 2 minutes is life and death, 10 minutes, well, its too late.  

I've been in this situation in real life, not some internet practice do this, do that scenario.  Definitely the worst climbing accident/human accident I've ever witnessed and assisted in rescue.  I leader took a 100 foot ground fall landing more or less head first.  There was no way he could have survived.  He appeared to be dead.  His air way was definitely blocked.  Fortunately, we were able to get to him in less than 2 minutes and open his air way.  Somehow, he was still alive.  4 minutes, he would have been dead.  If a leader is going to take 10 minutes to rappel back down 110 feet to their belayer, they shouldn't be climbing multi pitch.

Totally agreed, sir! I meant you are too late at that point.

 Unconscious is immediate and urgent, please, emphasize it again, eh? That's why they just shouldn't be coming up.with the bat cape stuff made out of sagebrush, ya know?

Thank you, hugely, for being there.

Do I know how to open an airway? No. Could I learn? Dunno. "Ten minutes to town" is a dangerous trap to fall into.

Best, Helen

Also, I've been in the multi pitch scenario, in the wilderness where cell phones did not work.  My close friend took a lead fall on the pitch below me.  I was with a beginner and so was she.  Now, time was of the essence getting to her while managing my partner and then hers.  No cell phones to get us out of this one.   Well, eventually, someone ran to cell service and called the much needed SAR.  She had 2 crushed vertebrae and a shattered wrist.  

So, you see, self rescue skills are very important because cell phones are not always reliable and time just might be of the essence.  And, you just might be someone else's best friend.  

Greg D wrote:

Also, I've been in the multi pitch scenario, in the wilderness where cell phones did not work.  My close friend took a lead fall on the pitch below me.  I was with a beginner and so was she.  Now, time was of the essence getting to her while managing my partner and then hers.  No cell phones to get us out of this one.   Well, eventually, someone ran to cell service and called the much needed SAR.  She had 2 crushed vertebrae and a shattered wrist.  

So, you see, self rescue skills are very important because cell phones are not always reliable and time just might be of the essence.  And, you just might be someone else's best friend.  

Great posts, sir! 

This is not a scenario, it's real. Your friends have been very fortunate to have you there. 

So, if I may ask, how did this play out? Converting that adrenaline to good use, but then knowing when to hunker down, are both vital skills that you clearly have.

Best, OLH

I've  have had a partner shout, I'm about to faint. Then she did. 

I had a partner knocked out by a rock 

I've had a partner go irrational due to being diabetic and us running out of food on ele cap. 

So not theoretical 

Greg D wrote:

Terrible advice.  Not everyone carries a cell phone, cell phones don't work in many multi pitch areas, cell phone batteries die, people drop cell phones.  So many more reasons this is shitty advice and why more lame ass climbers call for rescue when they are ten minutes from town on a 5.6.  

Zero self reliance skills advocated.  Instead, lets risk someone else's life for our dumb asses.  Sorry Helen, you get a D- on this one.

I disagree. I side w/ Old Lady H and Em Cos. I may be one of those "lame ass climbers" you're talking about. I'm learning all I can, but I'm not waiting until I have multiple days of self-rescue training before I get back on the rock. I recognize that I may find my self in a situation I can't handle myself, and Em Cos' point that calling SAR isn't all or nothing is good for me to keep in mind. I want all the tools I can have.

Whole thing is a piece of cake if you are on doubles.

Funny - I almost had to test all this years ago on Longs Peak.  Trying to top out in the dark, way over extended with a similarly out-of-his-depth partner, I was leading the last pitch when my altitude-sick belayer called up that he was very dizzy and thought he might pass out.  While he moaned louder and louder and said that his vision kept going dark, I quietly clipped myself in to a couple pieces, getting ready to have to fix the rope or something.  Then he puked and began to feel a bit better.  I finished the pitch (quickly), hauled his pack, and brought him up.  Man, we were so novice back then...