Advice on entry level ropes and draws

H Banks wrote:

How empty forums would be if this was followed. 

Where else would I go for entertainment??

Damn. You're right. SMH.

But really, in nearly 2018 the myth of microfractures in climbing gear deserves to be slagged. Unmercifully.

Just get a UIAA certified basic pack of six draws and a locking biner. Your partner will likely have some also. If you really want a rope get a 10mm rope dynamic UIAA rope but chances are your partner will have one. If you’re just starting out you and your partner can put together your gear and climb some routes. You can build from there. As you climb more you will likely grow a preference of what you do and don’t like.

waldo wrote:

Just get a UIAA certified basic pack of six draws and a locking beaner.

Biner. The term you used is derogatory to certain ethnic groups.

Mark Says wrote:

I didn't tell anyone anything, I believe you were the one who made the claim. How is the onus on me to prove what you're saying?

The onus is on you to provide a basis for the challenge, when what you seem to be disputing has been common knowledge for 50 years in climbing ropes.

You are also "welcome" for doing a simple google search for you.

You also don't understand what "anecdotal evidence" is in this case.

The reason there is no hard data iirc, is that the rope makers cannot agree on a standard for cutting resistance and won't publish their results for their ropes alone as it will make them look bad. This does not mean for a second that rope makers don't understand this issue intimately. They just don't share their knowledge with the climbing public.

Therefore if you want to dispute this "anecdote" that has been common knowledge for 50 years, that's your problem.

Here's a pro tip son: Every damn climbing rope out there cuts like butter if loaded over an edge. Don't get dead using an extra skinny rope.

Save a little bit of the nature we love as climbers and go with the edelrid boa eco 9.8.  According to the product info, the boa eco is 

"bluesign® approved product uses on average 62% less CO2, 89% less water, 63% less energy consumption and 63% fewer chemicals"

King Tut wrote:

The onus is on you to provide a basis for the challenge, when what you seem to be disputing has been common knowledge for 50 years in climbing ropes.

I was unaware that climbing ropes hadn't changed in 50 years.

Therefore if you want to dispute this "anecdote" that has been common knowledge for 50 years, that's your problem.

You seem quick to anger. Have you tried Chamomile tea?

Here's a pro tip son: Every damn climbing rope out there cuts like butter if loaded over an edge. 

D'aw, thanks 'dad'. Also, thank you for arguing yourself into disagreeing with yourself. As you say, every damn climbing rope out there will cut like butter in the right scenario whether it's 9.2 or 9.8 or 10.2. So filling people with fear that an entire millimeter of difference could be life or death is maybe unwarranted? It's bad enough half the shit that's spread around reddit and this place like it's fact, let's not add another useless one to the list. 9.2 is just as safe for the average climber as a 10.2.

Do you get this angry about anything you're asked?

waldo wrote:

Just get a UIAA certified basic pack of six draws and a locking beaner. Your partner will likely have some also. If you really want a rope get a 10mm rope dynamic UIAA rope but chances are your partner will have one. If you’re just starting out you and your partner can put together your gear and climb some routes. You can build from there. As you climb mor you will likely grow a preference of what you do and don’t like.

I think this is bad advice. Why get only 6 draws? You need at least 12 to climb almost anything of note including 2 draws to set up a TR for your second off the anchors. Hoping that all your partners will have 1/2 the needed gear is a recipe for being chronically under-partnered and short on gear. Just spend the whopping $100 to get enough draws. 

Mark Says wrote:

I was unaware that climbing ropes hadn't changed in 50 years.

You seem quick to anger. Have you tried Chamomile tea?

D'aw, thanks 'dad'. Also, thank you for arguing yourself into disagreeing with yourself. As you say, every damn climbing rope out there will cut like butter in the right scenario whether it's 9.2 or 9.8 or 10.2. So filling people with fear that an entire millimeter of difference could be life or death is maybe unwarranted? It's bad enough half the shit that's spread around reddit and this place like it's fact, let's not add another useless one to the list. 9.2 is just as safe for the average climber as a 10.2.

Do you get this angry about anything you're asked?

I never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Either that extra millimeter matters or every rope maker in the world doesn't know what they are doing.

King Tut wrote:

I never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I can't help but laugh at the irony of trotting out this line in an argument.

AndrewArroz wrote:

Even cheaper. https://www.backcountry.com/mammut-gravity-classic-climbing-rope-10.2mm

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I can't help but laugh at the irony of trotting out this line in an argument.

Sure. You're the expert.

AndrewArroz wrote:

I think this is bad advice. Why get only 6 draws? You need at least 12 to climb almost anything of note including 2 draws to set up a TR for your second off the anchors. Hoping that all your partners will have 1/2 the needed gear is a recipe for being chronically under-partnered and short on gear. Just spend the whopping $100 to get enough draws. 

That depends entirely on where you live.  A huge chunk of sport routes here in Austin, TX have only 4-5 bolts and almost all of them have sport chains with steel biners.  Certainly all of the easier routes.  I did fine with 6 draws for years and years before I expanded my rack to do some more obscure/harder/taller climbs.

Joe Lindberg wrote:

Save a little bit of the nature we love as climbers and go with the edelrid boa eco 9.8.  According to the product info, the boa eco is 

"bluesign® approved product uses on average 62% less CO2, 89% less water, 63% less energy consumption and 63% fewer chemicals"

If you have a bit of extra cash, this is actually a very good rope.  I've got the 70m version and not only is it environmentally friendly but it handles VERY well and has been durable for me so far (I beat my ropes up almost every weekend on big crystal granite too and often in squeeze chimneys).  I think it beats my Mammut 10.2 Gravity Classic 60m by a bit in that category.

OP find partners and climb with their gear first and see what you like. Depending on how often and who you climb with you may not need to purchase those things for a while.

King Tut wrote:

I never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Either that extra millimeter matters or every rope maker in the world doesn't know what they are doing.

We were talking about one specific condition. The rope getting cut. Not prolongation, not shock, not friction, not factor falls, not even how pretty a nice bicolor weave is. You've been so immediate with your outrage and insult however, I can take a hint.

when you realize that "edge" goes from razor (all ropes cut like butter) to varying "blunt" radii that is when the extra mm makes a real difference in safety.

ps. Sorry dude, was having a bad day yesterday. I promise I am much less a dick IRL. 

BUT, in this thread we are talking about "entry level" and newbies tend to make mistakes setting up TRs or raps etc and I think a cheap 10mm will serve them better. A little extra abrasion resistance or cutting resistance (ie  for when a piece is not properly extended, then the rope takes a fall above and there is a load over a typically blunt but dangerous edge) etc is solid advice.

King Tut wrote:

when you realize that "edge" goes from razor (all ropes cut like butter) to varying "blunt" radii that is when the extra mm makes a real difference in safety.

ps. Sorry dude, was having a bad day yesterday. I promise I am much less a dick IRL. 

BUT, in this thread we are talking about "entry level" and newbies tend to make mistakes setting up TRs or raps etc and I think a cheap 10mm will serve them better. A little extra abrasion resistance or cutting resistance (ie  for when a piece is not properly extended, then the rope takes a fall above and there is a load over a typically blunt but dangerous edge) etc is solid advice.

No sweat, I (originally) wasn't trying to push your buttons either.

No disagreement on your last statement, but I will add that 'bigger is better' isn't always true with climbing equipment. Dry treatments, while more costly, are the key to abrasion resistance. There's so much to worry about when starting out in climbing, I just don't want to see a bunch of newbies arguing at the crag that someone's 9.2 is going to kill everyone because it's thinner, when ultimately very few accidents ever occur due to a rope being cut during a climb. I'd rather they were worried about triple checking themselves and their buddies and making sure they don't do anything 60ft up that they haven't practiced at sea level.

Apologies if my first comment seemed confrontational, I honestly tried to word it in such a way that it'd just open the discussion.

Mark Says wrote:

No sweat, I (originally) wasn't trying to push your buttons either.

No disagreement on your last statement, but I will add that 'bigger is better' isn't always true with climbing equipment. Dry treatments, while more costly, are the key to abrasion resistance. There's so much to worry about when starting out in climbing, I just don't want to see a bunch of newbies arguing at the crag that someone's 9.2 is going to kill everyone because it's thinner, when ultimately very few accidents ever occur due to a rope being cut during a climb. I'd rather they were worried about triple checking themselves and their buddies and making sure they don't do anything 60ft up that they haven't practiced at sea level.

Apologies if my first comment seemed confrontational, I honestly tried to word it in such a way that it'd just open the discussion.

If we look at the accident reports then the number of totally cut ropes is always relatively low. However, the number of "core shot" (ie for the OP -ropes with torn sheaths exposing the core) events is some very much greater number yearly (though an anecdote as they are largely unreported). That extra mm is just for that core shot event to give a little extra margin of safety for someone less adept at recognizing a dangerous situation in advance.

Conveniently (and by design, having worked with the makers of ropes before) the "low price" sweet spot for starting ropes is at that ~10mm size. This gives the best price to value/safety relationship for newbies and is seen throughout most rope makers line ups.

As an aside: The basic design of Kernmantle Ropes (woven sheath to resist stretch and provide abrasion resistance over a standard twisted core of nylon fibers) has not changed significantly in 50 years. The manufacturing process has gotten better (kinda a higher "tolerance" thing) to make higher quality ropes than before...but, their cutting resistance has not changed very much, if at all. With sport climbing and a more "fast and light" approach ubiquitous in Alpine climbing, climbers themselves have gotten more tolerant of smaller diameter ropes....but the ropes have not gotten any safer en regards to cutting/core shot events, to my knowledge, if not actually more at risk due to their smaller diameters. As posted above, the makers can't agree on any standard for resistance to cutting so they all kinda neglect this and hope their rope isn't the one that is in an accident with a sort of "fate" or "shit happens, thank god its rare" approach. BITD I think Edelweiss tried to make ropes genuinely more resistant to cutting, but their testing protocol was nixed by others claiming another protocol that the ropes failed was better and of course the ropes were thicker and heavier and costlier...and failed in the marketplace...or something like that iirc. 

best regards

I think that the 70-meter Petzl Mambo 10.1 is a great entry level rope.  I also think the Trango React draws are great- they are durable and have nice stiff dog bones. I also suggest a few alpine draws- they come in very handy…