Moonlight Buttress Aid and Free climbing

Hum, Interesting thread. I was thinking of doing Moonlight with a friend who is a really solid free climber. What he couldn't free, I'd aid. 

We're reconsidering. I doubt we'd do it in a day.  But even if we could, it sounds like aiding part of the route is damaging (I don't have a lot sandstone experience), and the route should now be left entirely as a free climb.  Serenity Crack was at one time a popular aid route.

Guy Keesee wrote:

Kees ....    IMHO AID is when you use the rope, gear or anything to hold your weight - to give you a rest. The rope and gear is just there to be a life insurance policy in case you fall.

I know I will get S&It for saying this but i think it is important to have a clear distinction between the two. 

sort of like being pregnant or not pregnant.  

Completely agree Guy! But I am interested in the cultural difference. Not many European climbers would qualify themselves as aid climbers or saying I am going to aid this route (like in this thread). And I understand that it is a real thing in the US where climbers are setting out to do an aid route, they take all the neccessary gear etc. That is another mindset from  setting out to choose routes for free climbing. And sometimes a multipitch route in Europe has a few moves needing aid when you can't pull over that spot free, but 99% of the route is still free and needs a free climbing mindset.

Thinking out loud, and replying to my own post (sorry). Maybe all the would be European aid climbers are heading out to the Via Ferrata's?

I really like those too with the family in the mountains.

Kees it's strange you say that because I see a lot of big wall alpinists from Europe doing either a mix of free and hard aid climbing or pure aid climbing, like Andy Kirkpatrick and Marek Raganowicz.

Well, I certainly don't know everything, and just philosophize a bit here from the couch. Big wall stuff seems a bit different to me. Not like "regular" people on a rock climbing trip. These kinds of discussions tend to be very black and white while I am sure there are lots of grays.

So, do you think aid climbing is more a regular thing in the states, then it is in Europe? Or not and is it specially confined to big walls? I guess that was my question.

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

Well, I certainly don't know everything, and just philosophize a bit here from the couch. Big wall stuff seems a bit different to me. Not like "regular" people on a rock climbing trip. These kinds of discussions tend to be very black and white while I am sure there are lots of grays.

So, do you think aid climbing is more a regular thing in the states, then it is in Europe? Or not and is it specially confined to big walls? I guess that was my question.

I don't know any American's that go "aid cragging" or go out to do single pitch aid, but people do use aid to climb big walls. Maybe aid isn't as common in Europe because there is no feature like El Cap, a massive blank wall that begs to be climbed, but is so hard that only a few men and women can completely free it. 

I've gone aid cragging. Especially shoulder season, when the rock is too cold but the ice isn't in.

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

So, do you think aid climbing is more a regular thing in the states, then it is in Europe? Or not and is it specially confined to big walls? I guess that was my question.

Kees....  back in the day, most people - here in the west- would go aid climbing at Taquits, Josh and the valley. These boys always had the piton hammer on them, aders, prussics and carried heavy racks of pins and wore big boots. Being a good aid climber is quite a skill. One needed to be able to move fast and guys like Jim Madson, Kim Schmitz and Dick Dorworth (sp?) could climb El Cap in like 2 days.... that was really fast! 

People started to Free climb, almost like a trick or a stunt, in the mid sixties. Frank Sacherer was one of these pioneers along with others. Their focus was on "Free Climbing" and some very specific rules were applied to this practice. That is why I am a proud "semantdick" as pointed out up thread.    Because I believe that these rules still apply if one wishes to say they "free climbed Moonlight Buttress" vs saying "I climbed Moonlight Buttress".

In the Valley and elsewhere, lots of people from "my generation" looked at a aid climb as a challenge to be Free Climbed....  we applied the same rules that the pioneers used. One of the things that was new and different in climbing was the renaming of a climb once it had gone free. So the East Face of Washington column was renamed "Astroman" after the popular Hendrix song. 

I have never climbed Astroman, but I have climbed "The East Face" ... and it was a proud effort. 

By using the terms correctly one is not hiding anything but is conveying just exactly what they did. 

Its a subtle thing, this English language. 

I guess we should do everybody a favor and bolt moonlight buttress. Then it can he a real c1 and all bad trads can work their bigwall dream wall to death.

Guy Keesee wrote:

By using the terms correctly one is not hiding anything but is conveying just exactly what they did. 

I think of "free climbing" as a process. Sure, some people can OS moonlight buttress, but I think most climbers would describe fallling and working a route with the intention of getting it clean as free climbing yet at the same time would refrain from saying they freed a specific route until they had red pointed the whole thing. I don't think this is hiding anything.

will ar wrote:

I think of "free climbing" as a process. Sure, some people can OS moonlight buttress, but I think most climbers would describe fallling and working a route with the intention of getting it clean as free climbing yet at the same time would refrain from saying they freed a specific route until they had red pointed the whole thing. I don't think this is hiding anything.

will I think you are correct.   

"working" is the word I am thinking of. 

I have a ton of climbs that I am presently "working" 

George Perkins wrote:

If you put bolts on the most affected sections, neither aid nor (non-onsight) free climbing would further “damage” the climb in those sections.

Guessing that isn’t what most climbers, free or aid, would favor, myself included.

Sarcasm is hard on the internet. 

Does he just want to go up MLB by any means, or does he specifically want to aid lead?

If he just wants to get up MLB you could just lead all the pitches he can't free.

If he specifically wants to aid lead, it seems like the things the two of you want to do on MLB are incompatible. That's not a bad thing, you just need to find different climbing partners for this route.

I climbed Moonlight Buttress for the sixth time the other day and it definitely appears that corner pitch is getting more and more blown out. The heavily chalked blown out parts are making the crack bigger but i actually thought the somewhat untouched parts in between offered more secure locks since it was less flaired 

Brad G wrote:

I climbed Moonlight Buttress for the sixth time the other day and it definitely appears that corner pitch is getting more and more blown out. The heavily chalked blown out parts are making the crack bigger but i actually thought the somewhat untouched parts in between offered more secure locks since it was less flaired 

Wholeheartedly agree with you