Two belay loops??

It was deservedly lost in the shuffle.  (Actually not lost: when no one responds, that's a hint...)  

What exactly is the point?

Essentially the same question could be asked of almost everyone who ever asks a question on a forum.  Since when are posters "required" to consult other "experts" before posting here?  

Countless people post questions that have already been answered in the forum, sometimes without any rebukes.  OLH's question is not an example of this.  So why should she be held to some higher standard of self-censorship?  

Suppose her son gave her an answer.  Why  shouldn't she still ask the same question of other people?  The medical profession supports second opinions from experts, why not the climbing community?

This forum has a full share of people who sidetrack threads with pointless irrelevant content-free asides.  OLH talks about climbing issues.  If you are looking for trolls and can't do better than bark at her, you're one of those dogs with arboreal issues.

@rgold, thank you sir.

@mason, it is a genuine request. 

@those who said "cut off a loop", yes, that is reasonable. This is my only harness, and is also my very first climbing purchase, and I am loathe to chop any parts of it off. 

@anyone else, who thinks my "advice" is bad, please, please, state specifics and explain why. "Don't comment just because (old, new, crusty, whatever)" isn't helpful to anyone. If that makes me "defiant", so be it.

@matt, yes, the autobelay is out, except for very short laps close to the ground. Otherwise, top rope. Mostly, I just want to try to keep racking up mileage.

@nicholas, sorry I didn't reply earlier. When the attacks are raging, not you, as far as I'm concerned, it makes reasonable conversation more difficult. 

You asked in a reasonable manner, so here's the reply:

My son is busy. Very. Simple as that. He is very involved with local SAR, and has landed a new job as an advanced EMT with the local paramedics. Two 24 hour shifts a week, and, the two days after each, mostly spent sleeping.

I will bring it up with him, just so he is aware of what happened. 

Part of his answer, I already know, will be to reiterate that lockers can unlock. He gets to attend conferences with rescue experts, and I'm hoping he will have some theories.

In the meantime, I asked this community of bright, experienced, thoughtful people. Some of whom enjoy helping others and pondering puzzles.

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

Part of his answer, I already know, will be to reiterate that lockers can unlock. He gets to attend conferences with rescue experts, and I'm hoping he will have some theories.

In the meantime, I asked this community of bright, experienced, thoughtful people. Some of whom enjoy helping others and pondering puzzles.

Best, Helen

So about this...

Just like screwgates, 2-stage lockers can come unlocked relatively easily if the rope somehow manages to run over the gate. The same texture that makes the locking mechanism easy to grip also works for a rope, and, in theory, a running rope could unscrew the screwgate or untwist the autolocker. So your gym is pretty dumb for having a 2-stage autolocker on the auto belay instead of a 3-stage. 

However, this kind of thing requires a rope that is running over the gate for a small distance. In other words, I highly doubt that a belay loop would be able to replicate this kind of motion so this theory is out. As far as my knowledge works, that leaves us with two other explanations of how it was only clipped to 1 belay loop:

1) the most probable, you only clipped it to one belay loop. Or

2) some sort of freak-of-nature, 1 in a million chance event that resulted in the auto-locker coming unclipped from one of the belay loops.

It is important to understand that, although we know a lot about climbing, we still don't fully understand everything about the nature of the vertical environment. The fact that people do entire PhD programs just to better understand the friction between rock and cam lobe should be an obvious indicator that we still don't know everything.

Therefore, there are unidentified risks that we don't fully understand and therefore cannot mitigate. But chances are, you didn't clip both belay loops. And unless these events were recording on film in high quality, we will never know for sure.

But, it appears that it was pilot error. I'll spare you the sugar-coating because I'm sure you can handle it: You Fucked Up.

Anybody who spends enough time climbing is going to fuck up at some point. Most will probably fuck up more than once. But you have to learn from your mistakes, because you might not be so lucky next time.

It's time for you to reflect on your mistake and your experience to determine how to move forward. You need to decide whether climbing is worth the risk to you and, if so, how you're going to modify your attitudes and behavior to make sure you don't make this mistake again.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but everybody is going to need the wake up call in some form or another. It's part of the learning experience. If it makes you feel any better, my wake up call resulted in a broken ankle. 

rgold wrote:

It was deservedly lost in the shuffle.  (Actually not lost: when no one responds, that's a hint...)  

What exactly is the point?

Essentially the same question could be asked of almost everyone who ever asks a question on a forum.  Since when are posters "required" to consult other "experts" before posting here?  

Countless people post questions that have already been answered in the forum, sometimes without any rebukes.  OLH's question is not an example of this.  So why should she be held to some higher standard of self-censorship?  

Suppose her son gave her an answer.  Why  shouldn't she still ask the same question of other people?  The medical profession supports second opinions from experts, why not the climbing community?

This forum has a full share of people who sidetrack threads with pointless irrelevant content-free asides.  OLH talks about climbing issues.  If you are looking for trolls and can't do better than bark at her, you're one of those dogs with arboreal issues.

Wow , I just wanted to know if she had or not I was just curious ...and since she had directly replied to other posts right next to mine I thought it got overlooked. 

I didn’t have some grand master “troll” sceme to try and trick some random person on MP into some kind of trap about how or why they are posting. I asked because I wanted to know ....pretty hypocritical of you to champion her “Mountain project question posting” right and in the same post deem my question to be unworthy to ask or receive a response. 

I didn’t say “ OMFG are you serious!?! Why don’t you ask you son for a change and stop posting!? Did you even ask him?” and if that’s how you took it (and apparently is was) that’s on you. 

Colby wrote:

Nobody said you need to consult an expert, but when you post a bloated question without a picture of the situation, all anybody can say is to cut off a loop or ask gym staff who can physically see what went wrong. 

Chain of events: 

OLH asks bloated question full of spray --> I respond with literally the only solution possible --> OLH calls me a shithead --> I tell OLH to fuck off and everybody agrees with me

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

A wise man once said:

"Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always."

Let's try not to forget rule 1. 

Old lady H wrote:

You asked in a reasonable manner, so here's the reply:

My son is busy. Very. Simple as that. He is very involved with local SAR, and has landed a new job as an advanced EMT with the local paramedics. Two 24 hour shifts a week, and, the two days after each, mostly spent sleeping.

I will bring it up with him, just so he is aware of what happened. 

Part of his answer, I already know, will be to reiterate that lockers can unlock. He gets to attend conferences with rescue experts, and I'm hoping he will have some theories.

In the meantime, I asked this community of bright, experienced, thoughtful people. Some of whom enjoy helping others and pondering puzzles.

Best, Helen

Was just curious .

NG, of course I can't fathom your intentions, and I'm happy to learn they are better than I suspected.  But when someone is getting slammed for asking a question and then you post an "innocent" query asking whether they consulted an expert before posting (bolded text is a quote from you), you are suggesting, that she should have done something else before posting,  If that reading is "on me," I'll own it, because that's the literal content.  

And next we have to ask why a poster is supposed to have done something before posting, and in what sense, given the context of this particular discussion, the failure to do something first somehow deligitmizes the post.  No you didn't say that, but if you don't  see that implication in they way you worded it, there is little more I can say here to help.

eli poss wrote:

A wise man once said:

"Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always."

Yeah.  Not too many wise men around nowadays, and I'm referring to far more than this occasionally-benighted discussion group.  Kindness is kind of out right now, isn't it?

Colby wrote:

You/Me/Almost any climber don't need 2 belay loops unless you are climbing high end technical aid. Same goes for having 7+ gear loops on a bigwall harness. My advice was genuine. 

It's funny that you put "advice" in quotes, which is exactly how I should have typed it when responding to you. It is not advice, it is purely speculation from an armchair climber who spends more time on the internet talking about climbing, then actually climbing. If nobody is there to correct your "advice", then it can be mistaken for fact, which can get people killed. If you want to have that on your conscience, so be it. Nobody should give armchair "advice" in a sport where your life is on the line. That is what guides are for.  

Colby, you are missing the fact that I simply happen to have a big gun harness with two belay loops. That is simple fact, not spray.

Odd stuff does happen now and then. Many climbers are interested in the oddities, even if they are not a real concern.

Sure, Eli, etc yes, I totally agree the most likely explanation on the auto belay is that the second loop wasn't clipped. 

Fine.

But. I also have the earlier belay loop oddity, when two of us were certain it was correct when I left the ground.

Colby, you're well into your climbing, not a brand new climber, wouldn't that catch your attention?

Best, Helen

Edit to add: and thanks, Colby, for coming on and participating. New voices on here are a big plus!

rgold wrote:

NG, of course I can't fathom your intentions, and I'm happy to learn they are better than I suspected.  But when someone is getting slammed for asking a question and then you post an "innocent" query asking whether they consulted an expert before posting (bolded text is a quote from you), you are suggesting, that she should have done something else before posting,  If that reading is "on me," I'll own it, because that's the literal content.  

And next we have to ask why a poster is supposed to have done something before posting, and in what sense, given the context of this particular discussion, the failure to do something first somehow deligitmizes the post.  No you didn't say that, but if you don't  see that implication in they way you worded it, there is little more I can say here to help.

You couldn’t fathom my intentions.... so you went ahead and assumed the worst ... and now somehow its my fault? Interesting.

I’m not getting into the minutia of  “the way you typed it ....you said it this way though” ect. type of argument thing that would transpire over the next few pages ,  because I don’t care about an understanding between us (and that’s not said with vitriol ... I just don’t care) Feel free to respond I’m sure I’ll read it but I won’t be posting in this thread anymore.

Colby wrote:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

Colby,

Your profile says you’re a 23 year-old male. I work in a hospital. I see a ton of men in their early 20s who do remarkably stupid shit that lands them in the ER. Women in their 50s, not so much. Have some humility. It will help both you and everyone around you. 

Nicholas Gillman wrote:

You couldn’t fathom my intentions.... so you went ahead and assumed the worst ... and now somehow its my fault? Interesting.

I’m not getting into the minutia of  “the way you typed it ....you said it this way though” ect. type of argument thing that would transpire over the next few pages ,  because I don’t care about an understanding between us (and that’s not said with vitriol ... I just don’t care) Feel free to respond I’m sure I’ll read it but I won’t be posting in this thread anymore.

You don't think its "your fault" if your writing expresses something you didn't intend?  Since it is true that no one can know your intentions, we all have to go by the actual content of what you actually wrote, and that's what I did. 

Colby and Nicholas? 

Thanks for taking the time to participate in this thing, and please do continue to jump my ass when deemed necessary, and get your voices on here also.

This place needs more people. Civility, or something like, might be "nice", but I realize that can be asking far too much. And boring. Its much more fun, and helpful, even if annoying, to have a wide variety of personalities posting.

If you disagree with someone, state your case.

Over and over, even in the most heated, most vile name calling threads, someone pops on with a fabulously sharp witticism, or derails the whole thing into a thread drift on page seven, with actual content. 

Best to the lot of ya, Helen

This whole thread is spray.. Unsubscribed.   

It has been mentioned upthread but I think it bears re-iterating: autobelay autolockers need to be carefully checked.   They get gummed up.  I have seen them close but not lock many times, and have even seen one fail to close completely.

I've an outlandish idea.

Buy a better harness for what you're doing. They're pretty cheap.

Marcus wrote:

I've an outlandish idea.

Buy a better harness for what you're doing. They're pretty cheap.

I'm getting there. ;-)

Old lady H wrote:

I'm getting there. ;-)

And get a car, for God's sake. :)

This is why you don't eat edibles and go to the gym... That shit kicks in and you don't know what's going on. Stick to the bowl.

yeah, all this can be solved by ensuring that the locked gate faces away from the 2nd loop and that the twist lock mechanism has engaged fully. Both incidents you site are clearly user error as locked carabiners do not simply come unlocked. Sloppy use of lockers, whether on your harness or you anchor can create a situation where other materials will disengage the lock, but that is not a freak incident, it is user error.