Newb ?, smallest cams for trad?

Patrik wrote:

Wow. I feel like it took me 6-12 years to start getting on "hard" climbs. All relative I suppose. I dont think I used/owned anything smaller than a green alien until I started climbing 5.12 trad. 

Shelton Hatfield wrote:

Are you suggesting that the "logical path up" is to do some climbing up the splitter 000 c3 crack? Or are you suggesting that if the anchors were further right that they'd be clippable from the same stance that the 000's were placed from? Or something different entirely?

The final gear is putting it into a crack with an overlap of looks close to half an inch further out on the left. Why not just walk up the crack using a lie back with finger tips laying on the crack as high as possible and I bet a climber could reach the same height as doing that jump over and reaching up. Heck I have done similar reaches in a gym (sure on better holds but than I am not a 5.14+ climber) as leaving a hand in the top of the big crack and high step up on the V crack.

Not saying someone can't end a route anyway they want but even if that was a climb in my climbing range I wouldn't climb it just because it has a stupid ending. Everyone is to climb whatever they want though.

Shelton Hatfield wrote:

If you don't think that the FA should have put the anchors in a position that requires more moves of rock climbing to clip, specifically hard committing moves, then I don't know what to tell you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Maybe this video will help you appreciate the finish? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j63aJbzgORk

Nice!  That’s actually a better video to use as an example, as Hayden’s was a send video and didn’t show him actually falling on them.

ViperScale wrote:

The final gear is putting it into a crack with an overlap of looks close to half an inch further out on the left. Why not just walk up the crack using a lie back with finger tips laying on the crack as high as possible and I bet a climber could reach the same height as doing that jump over and reaching up. Heck I have done similar reaches in a gym (sure on better holds but than I am not a 5.14+ climber) as leaving a hand in the top of the big crack and high step up on the V crack.

Not saying someone can't end a route anyway they want but even if that was a climb in my climbing range I wouldn't climb it just because it has a stupid ending. Everyone is to climb whatever they want though.

For what it's worth, the anchor on Carbondale Short Bus is about five or six feet up and left from the top of the flare. Sure, you could put the anchor down low where it's clippable from the flare, but why not put it a bit higher and include a wild dyno move at the end? Guess my question is why not take a climb to the last possible move, especially if it presents a crux up high, makes the clip from a less tenuous stance, and is just darn cool (and yes I know that's totally subjective)? If we're talking about contrived finishes, well there's a 5.9/5.10 crack that goes to the canyon rim from 4x4 Wall, so if the only goal is "reaching the top" then it doesn't make much sense to even bother getting off the ground on anything harder.

As far as the OP question, I've taken whips on the 0 Metolius. It works just fine. Sometimes I double them up in soft rock. But most places other than the desert, I don't often find spots where only a microcam will go in, especially on routes below 5.9. There's often a good nut or bigger cam placement pretty close by.

Yeah it really depends on the rock.  At Devil’s Lake, we have 5.7s that are unsafe without C3s/TCUs because they’re essentially face climbs where you’re using small pods and pockets rather than following a continuous crack where you have multiple options.

Get down to a #00 C3, I like the C3s in the smaller sizes because they are narrower and in the thin sizes I find that the X4s or any 4 lobe cam is too wide, although I also carry the smallest X4s on the other side of my rack and place them fairly often.

I have whipped on a #000 C3 but I can't say I place it enough to justify it but in the case of this one climb it was a mandatory placement.

Matt Zia wrote:

For what it's worth, the anchor on Carbondale Short Bus is about five or six feet up and left from the top of the flare. Sure, you could put the anchor down low where it's clippable from the flare, but why not put it a bit higher and include a wild dyno move at the end? Guess my question is why not take a climb to the last possible move, especially if it presents a crux up high, makes the clip from a less tenuous stance, and is just darn cool (and yes I know that's totally subjective)? If we're talking about contrived finishes, well there's a 5.9/5.10 crack that goes to the canyon rim from 4x4 Wall, so if the only goal is "reaching the top" then it doesn't make much sense to even bother getting off the ground on anything harder.

As far as the OP question, I've taken whips on the 0 Metolius. It works just fine. Sometimes I double them up in soft rock. But most places other than the desert, I don't often find spots where only a microcam will go in, especially on routes below 5.9. There's often a good nut or bigger cam placement pretty close by.

I don't know most single pitch climbs I know of stop at a logical point. Not the hardest or always top move you can get to but what makes sense. Some routes even have 2 anchors with the first stopping point below a big roof that makes the grade alot harder and another single pitch anchor for those who want to do the last 30ft of hard moves. Everyone is welcome to their own option but that route seems like it has a contrived finish to me where the logical one would be just going up that original crack as high as possible.

@OP don't listen to these punters talking about a climb they will never do (CSB 5.13+/5.14a). If they go climb it they can then lecture the FA about his route, until then its just jaw flapping.

As far as the micro cams go: you will find the blue, yellow and orange (1-3) met MC to be MONEY...particularly if you climb granite. An under-appreciated bonus to small cams is that they place bomber in the parallel spots, leaving the constrictions for your bomber finger locks. Fill the Lock with a nut and you can hose yourself. This is less noticed on easy routes but becomes critical beta on harder ones.

Below those money sizes they are specialty gear and fit a very narrow range of cracks so overall their utility becomes less. They become like wide gear, as needed for a specific route, not something you need to have for your "standard rack", in my experience.

The #1 mastercam has saved my ass countless times, even took a 20’+ fall after a cam pulled in a shit placement. I’ve placed the 0 a few times but I’ve never whipped on it so can’t say what it will hold. Personally I’d go down to at least a 1 initially and then get the 0 and 00 as you get some extra spending money. 

When you're starting out, you don't need anything smaller than .3 BD size.

If a climb takes smaller gear than a BD .3, I don't want to climb it, therefore I don't own any micro cams :)

JCM wrote:

Don't buy the smallest two sizes (grey, purple) yet. While the posts above are generally correct - microcams do have a useful role to play - they are not appropriate for a brand-new trad leader. They are finicky to place and have small margins for error. Also, the tiniest cams are rarely needed on the sort of straightforward easy climbs that you should be getting on to learn to lead. Buy down to blue (#1) metolius to start. You can pick up the tiny cams later.

Exactly this^^^ 

Metolius (#1) - BD (#3) with doubles eventually will be great for years of learning. I’d recommend a set of nuts for sure (DMM offsets) are great for Sierra climbing.

ViperScale wrote:

Everyone is welcome to their own option but that route seems like it has a contrived finish to me where the logical one would be just going up that original crack as high as possible.

I mean, maybe that is going up the original crack as high as possible? 000 tips crack is real small, and if there's no offset, liebacking off that could be dang near impossible, and who knows if there's any kind of stance up there. 

But hey, none of us have climbed it, many of us probably haven't even seen it in person, so who are we to say.

My 0 and 00 cams don't see a ton of use and rarely on climbs below 5.10, but as others have said in some areas these are part of a standard rack. If money is an issue hold off, you'll probably get more use out of doubling up on midrange cams. While they don't work in parallel cracks, micronuts are cheaper, fit in much smaller cracks, often feel more solid, and mine get much more use than small cams.

As for the debate about Carbondale short bus-I'm guessing hk aided the crack to place the bolts and TR it in which case they could likely be reached from the crack if you could free climb it. If it was reasonable to climb the crack at that grade without the low percentage dyno it likely would have been done that way.

What about WC Zeros? Them are the shit. 

Mark Verosky wrote:

The #1 mastercam has saved my ass countless times, even took a 20’+ fall after a cam pulled in a shit placement. I’ve placed the 0 a few times but I’ve never whipped on it so can’t say what it will hold. Personally I’d go down to at least a 1 initially and then get the 0 and 00 as you get some extra spending money. 

I second this, the #1 mastercam is the only met piece I still have on my rack, it's a small step smaller from the be .3 (blue) and I use it very often, get this and all the sizes up to be #3, doubles and u r pretty much good for life.

will ar wrote:

As for the debate about Carbondale short bus-I'm guessing hk aided the crack to place the bolts and TR it in which case they could likely be reached from the crack if you could free climb it. If it was reasonable to climb the crack at that grade without the low percentage dyno it likely would have been done that way.

Just wanted to point out that Nick Martino is credited with first trying the line and he presumably put the anchors in. If anyone sees him be sure to let him know that ViperScale from MP thinks his route is stupid...

Why not just put the anchors on the ground? 

I'm a thoroughly average trad-climber (used to be a little stronger on gear but can onsight in the low-10s) and place the blue master-cam often. I own a purple but rarely place it. Spend the money on bigger cams, fiddle nuts into finger cracks and smaller, and stick to G-rated routes. Enjoy.

Tradiban wrote:

I second this, the #1 mastercam is the only met piece I still have on my rack, it's a small step smaller from the be .3 (blue) and I use it very often, get this and all the sizes up to be #3, doubles and u r pretty much good for life.

Nick have you tried Totem Basics?  The blue basic is about that size and one of my favorite small cams, especially on slick rock like DL quartzite.