Leaving quicklinks on bolts when bailing

John Byrnes wrote:

1) I don't believe you.

2) Climbing rated rapides cost as much as a biner, and weigh more.  So what's the point?

3) So you created  safety issue right at the crux, and that doesn't bother you.  Hmmmm.  

4) Some people DO want to onsight at their limit, and they get pissed at weenies who leave rapides.

Yup, you'll continue to be a PITA for other climbers.  

1. Ok, but that doesn't change my experience with them. 

2. They are similar in cost and weight. $2.50 for a Petzl or Mammut one, and weigh 28 grams....  

3. I don't leave mine. I typically go fetch it the next day if possible. I stated I use mine for emergencies

4. Ok, be angry. I'll laugh them off privately later. 

Marcus wrote:

Wait, am I reading this right? You wouldn't bail off a non-locking biner, presumably because that's less safe, but you're willing to fuck the next persons climb by leaving a rapide? That's some handy entitlement. 

Lol, you people are hilarious. You aren't screwing up anybody's climb leaving a climbing safe piece of hardware. I make sure all of mine are, and typically go back and retrieve them asap. Sorry, doesn't bother me

It sounds like we all agree that despite the hardware, you should just leave bail piece instead of trying some fancy rope trick. Make sure whatever hardware you use is climbing safe and call it a day. If you can, go remove it later. 

Ian, you still don't get it.

A lot of times, the rapid link is much harder to deal with than a bail biner. 

It can fill the hanger so much as to hinder later climbers, or rust and need to be cut off.

The fact that you haven't experienced this suggests a certain lack of travel or experience.

That's ok, you will learn eventually. 

I just hate to see you advocate a practice which has genuine drawbacks for the rest of us.

Furthermore, I don't see your safety argument for links/lockers.

Do you use a locker on the first 2-3 bolts on a route every time? 

Because the failure of that (presumably non-locking) biner may have just as dire an impact as the failure of the non-locking biner you use to retreat.

So why use a locker to bail?

If anything, worry about the bolt you are lowering from.

I agree the Texas rope trick is stupid.

Idaho Ian wrote:

It sounds like we all agree that despite the hardware, you should just leave bail piece instead of trying some fancy rope trick. Make sure whatever hardware you use is climbing safe and call it a day. If you can, go remove it later. 

Right.

If you have to bail, you have to bail off something.  Which means leaving gear behind - gear that is strong enough to hold body weight with a significant margin of safety.  There's no other way around except some sort of shenanigans that anyone with common sense knows is impractical and often dangerous.

The whining on this thread about "bail gear at my crux" is pathetic.  It doesn't happen that often. When it does, deal with it.

Alternative Solution for bailing off a sport climb: Stick clip through the bolts you can't climb. Get to top. Clean normally. Leave nothing. Not being strong enough to finish a sport climb isn't an "emergency."

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Yeah, I accept that I haven't personally come across that situation, and don't deny that I may find that in the future. 

Certainly, the point about being more worried about the quality of the bolt than having a locker is entirely valid. My point there was simply that I wouldn't trust a single piece of hardware unless it was locked when I was way off the deck. After the second bolt on a climb you have redundant protection. Likewise, you could leave a second bail biner as well.

It really seems that most of the problems that are being stated are about misgivings towards hardware store quality gear and not rated, steel links like I suggested. 

Maybe I'll reconsider when I have to replace my current one

Wait, who doesn't have a collection of bail gear that they could just reuse?  I don't even climb hard and I have a few pieces. Why the need for all this unnecessary rigging?

Also, isn't pulling rope through another material, bad for your rope? It doesn't take much to generate heat.  My $150 - $200 rope is more precious to me than some free - $10 biners.

Idaho Ian wrote:

Lol, you people are hilarious. You aren't screwing up anybody's climb leaving a climbing safe piece of hardware. I make sure all of mine are, and typically go back and retrieve them asap. Sorry, doesn't bother me

It sounds like we all agree that despite the hardware, you should just leave bail piece instead of trying some fancy rope trick. Make sure whatever hardware you use is climbing safe and call it a day. If you can, go remove it later. 

Whether it bothers you is irrelevant. What you think about leaving a rapide is irrelevant. 

The fact is the ethic now is to not leave them mid-route, period.

Idaho Ian wrote:

Lol, you people are hilarious. You aren't screwing up anybody's climb leaving a climbing safe piece of hardware. I make sure all of mine are, and typically go back and retrieve them asap. Sorry, doesn't bother me

Glad to have people like you in the climbing community, "What I do that affects other people doesn't bother me in the slightest, so long as I get what I want out of it.". No, you're not putting anyone in eminent danger, however you are putting a locked piece of equipment that doesn't belong there because it makes you feel better, and to hell with the person who has to remove it. It doesn't matter if you intend to retrieve them, there's no guarantee you'll be the next person on that route, so why not spend the extra $2 it would cost to pick up a BD oval.

Idaho Ian wrote:

It really seems that most of the problems that are being stated are about misgivings towards hardware store quality gear and not rated, steel links like I suggested. 

For me, the issue is using links that can be hard to remove and encouraging others to do the same.

The suggestion that "there aren't many links" is true only because their use is discouraged by some of us.

If it becomes accepted practice, inevitably there will be many more hanging on bolt hangers, since the number of people who clean up after others is fairly low. 

Even cleaning up after yourself seems to be on the wane, given the 'throwing my banana' thread.

I mean, somebody spent hundreds of dollars of their own money, not to mention time and effort, to put up the route. 

The least you can do is not screw it up for other climbers.

Ryan U. wrote:

Isn't pulling rope through another material, bad for your rope? It doesn't take much to generate heat.

It's bad for the sling.  For the rope, the heat / wear isn't focused on any one spot on the rope.

Anyway, people comfortable with standard solutions should by all means continue using whatever they are comfortable with.  I just thought that, for those who would use the Texas Rope Trick (I personally know people who have), it might be worth knowing that it can be backed up.  Plus now, thanks to this thread, we have stolo's trick - arguably even better.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

I mean, somebody spent hundreds of dollars of their own money, not to mention time and effort, to put up the route. 

Somebody is paying way too much for bolting hardware.

Maybe. Not me, I don't bolt routes, too lazy.

But seems like a dozen ss bolts and a decent anchor setup might cost >$100.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

For me, the issue is using links that can be hard to remove and encouraging others to do the same.

The suggestion that "there aren't many links" is true only because their use is discouraged by basically everyone in the community.

If it becomes accepted practice, inevitably there will be many more hanging on bolt hangers, since the number of people who clean up after others is fairly low. 

Even cleaning up after yourself seems to be on the wane, given the 'throwing my banana' thread.

I mean, somebody spent hundreds of dollars of their own money, not to mention time and effort, to put up the route. 

The least you can do is not screw it up for other climbers.

+1 and I fixed that second sentence for you.  

We can all agree the Texas trick is stupid

Everyone except Ian agrees to use a biner.

I personally am positive in the bail to bootie ratio (probably at least $20) it seems that would be true of the majority of people.  Not sure why it's hard for people to take simple sound advice from others.  

BrokenChairs BrettC wrote:

I personally am positive in the bail to bootie ratio (probably at least $20) it seems that would be true of the majority of people.  

I know, it seems like everyone is positive in the bail biner exchange.

 I'm not sure how that's possible, except maybe good karma.

Ask anyone and they will tell you they are an above average driver.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

I know, it seems like everyone is positive in the bail biner exchange.

 I'm not sure how that's possible, except maybe good karma.

It's my fault. I've left bail biners all over the country - some in Canada, too. Basically I'm a weak chickenshit.

Dave Kos wrote:

Ask anyone and they will tell you they are an above average driver.

I'm not. I'm pretty sketchy. Watch out!

@Marc801- thanks!

Edited to add- time for the pain box, carry on without me.

Dave Kos wrote:

Ask anyone and they will tell you they are an above average driver.

Very true.  I'm not sure on the actual number it just seems I come across more than I leave every season but it doesn't mean I don't leave them to.  Maybe it's like currency and we are all just floating the same biners around to one other.  

NM apparently they're all Mark's.  ;-)

Mark E Dixon wrote:

But seems like a dozen ss bolts and a decent anchor setup might cost >$100.

If you amortize all the gear you need and probably buy (drill, bits, brushes, blow-tube, ascender, etrier, glue-gun, glue, belay seat, gear-bag, removable bolts, etc.) it certainly comes out over $100/route.