Semi or Full Auto crampons on oldschool stich welt boots?

Has anyone tried semi or full auto cramps on oldschool leather full welt boots? Im talking about the ones with either Norwegian welt or goodyear construction, heavy leather, steel shanks. Something like this:

For full auto, even if the bail works, I'd be concerned about wearing out the stitching at the welt.  Once that goes, you're screwed.  You might be able to protect it with Aqua Seal/Seam Grip, but that would reduce the attachment ledge and cause it to me more likely to pop off.  For the heel attachment, same problem--exposed stitching, even if it fits.  Fit will be dependent on individual boot/crampon characteristics.

Strap crampons are probably your best bet, I don't think you would be climbing stuff hard enough to warrant clip or step in crampons with Norwegian welted boots.

I was hoping to use Semis for the rear stability. But your right it wont be very intense

Dante Carriero wrote:

I was hoping to use Semis for the rear stability. But your right it wont be very intense

Not going to be too stable when the rear bail pops out of place. While they are semi rigid those boots are still going to flex considerably, the heel will have a tendency to shift when this happens. A mountain boot has non compressible plastic where it is clamped by the rear bail, since those are leather/stitching as mentioned above it's going to compress. When that happens the heel is coming out.

I have worn semis many times on a pair of old fabianos.  Lower angle stuff (shuksan, as example), but never had a problem.  

And with the old style boots, you can use (really cheap) old-style crampons.  I've spent a lot of time in the old SMC hinged (and rigid) strap-ons.  They work fine.  And I've climbed a lot of WI4 in strap-on rigid Chouinard crampons.  Since you're not climbing steep ice, you have a lot of options.

Brad Christie wrote:

I have worn semis many times on a pair of old fabianos.  Lower angle stuff (shuksan, as example), but never had a problem.  

What kind of Fabiano's? Any idea what kind of shank they had?

Those boots do have a 3/4 steel shank so they should be pretty stiff.....

Gonna look into those old crampons - would be nice to save some cash if they'll get the job done!

Dante Carriero wrote:

What kind of Fabiano's? Any idea what kind of shank they had?

Those boots do have a 3/4 steel shank so they should be pretty stiff.....

Gonna look into those old crampons - would be nice to save some cash if they'll get the job done!

Not sure on exact model.  The uppers are stamped Fabiano but they have scarpa eyelits.   I think that puts them something like 1979-1980 right around the buyout.

I believe they are 3/4 shank.  There is a slight curvature to the toe (rocker?) that would make full auto crampons difficult but the hybrid snugs down nicely on the toe.  

Interesting. I also have some light but sturdy old-school Half shank boots..... That might be pushing it though flex wise.

So your Fabiano just had a sewn welt like these? The exposed welt is still pretty damn sturdy

If you want a modern crampon but want to get strap-one, there are plenty of new options.  Most people tend to call the strap-ons “old”, but there are lots of companies still producing them! 

Dante - your photo is not showing up for me. But it is a sewn welt and I am definitely no expert but I believe it is a Norwegian welt.  I will post a photo after work.  

I have worn them for easy to mod snow and glacier and really enjoyed.  The main reason I don't wear them primarily anymore is due to the insulating.  Putting them on at 3am in the tent is like putting your foot in a n ice bath.  Feet were never warm.  

I do still use then often for casual cross country skiing with a silvretta binding.  Again, very casual skiing but definitely no problems.  

I've used Lowe Footfangs on Vasque boots with these welts and they worked fine.  

I would avoid full and semi automatic poons with these boots. If the shank is flexible, as are most hiking boots, the poons will not stay secure. You would be much better off with a quality pair of strap on poons, especially if you plan just general mountaineering. You may get away with the semi auto or full auto on snow and low angle, but just as soon as you place your front point on something vertices you find the bails popping off.

If you goal is to climb vertices Ice, I suggest you buy a boot that is designed for verticle ice and a pair of crampons made for that type of climbing. This footwear is best used in general mountaineering and snow climbing. 

I dont have a plan to climb vertical ice - I just need it for general mountaineering. The boot has a 3/4 steel shank (many semi modern boots have a 3/4 nylon shank) so I expect it may be stiffer even (compared to the Rapace for example)

Dante Carriero wrote:

I dont have a plan to climb vertical ice - I just need it for general mountaineering. The boot has a 3/4 steel shank (many semi modern boots have a 3/4 nylon shank) so I expect it may be stiffer even (compared to the Rapace for example)

As mentioned before. Stiffness is not the issue, its the lack of a proper bail, the bail on a moutaineering boot is made of an incompressable plastic, your boots don't have this. The moment you front point that bail is gonna pop right off.

From my experience, crampons only pop off when you really really don't want them to.  Walking around on a flat glacier where the downside of one coming off is exactly where it is unlikely to happen.  When you are stressing specific points and angles on the crampon is when they are likely to pop off, which is usually the exact worst time for them to come off.  For example, moving over steep rock, front pointing into very very hard snow, traversing laterally over high angle blue ice.  

Flying down a steep snow slope because a crampon popped off is not really anybody's idea of a fun time.  It's better to get equipment meant for the job when we rely on it for our safety.  For the boot in question, a strap-on is built for that.  Not super sexy, but a more advanced crampon system requires a boot that is built for it.

I don't know why everyone is acting like strap on crampons are useless antiques.  I've had plenty of occasions where a properly fitting strap on crampon is more secure on my boot than a semi- or full-auto.  I have a pair of the new Petzl Sarkens with the convertible toe bail and I think they fit my Nepals best with the plastic basket rather than the wire bail.  I wouldn't hesitate to climb mellow glacier ice with full straps.

How do the older strap one compare to the newer ones? There's a lot from the 90s for cheap - I assume they haven't changed a ton?

Dante Carriero wrote:

How do the older strap one compare to the newer ones? There's a lot from the 90s for cheap - I assume they haven't changed a ton?

They have. They totally have. The straps themselves are not all that different, but the rest of the crampon is very different.  The older ones are typically a lot heavier, have trouble with snow balling, and/or are less adjustable.  

Chris C. wrote:

They have. They totally have. The straps themselves are not all that different, but the rest of the crampon is very different.  The older ones are typically a lot heavier, have trouble with snow balling, and/or are less adjustable.  

The old strapon crampons still work--the ones with the long straps that you have to weave.  My partner has even used them on rock shoes.  And actually, my old SMC strapons were lighter than anything currently available (aside from aluminum).  Width adjustability is problematic, that's why they came in different sizes, something to be aware of.  For snow balling, you can wire some plastic from bleach/detergent containers.  Are they ideal in today's world with a myriad of choices?  No.  Are they workable for a mere pittance?  Yes.  You could probably get a serviceable pair for $25, that is if the person doesn't just give them to you.  For $100 or less, you could get a used pair of BD Contact Straps--they'll work fine for snow travel with probably any boot you can fit them to.

Ah, memories--lacing crampons and chopping steps!