Is your masculinity in climbing toxic?

AnthonyLubetski wrote:

Also, lots of people in this thread confusing the terms 'gender' and 'sex'.

Enlighten me, what are the differences? Last I checked the two words are synonyms. When one uses the word sexism, are they talking about gender or sex?

Pepe Climbs Rocks wrote:

No.  you can never feel enough guilt for being a man.  Never.  If you are straight, double your guilt.      And if you are a white man, you must have an extra helping of shame on top of your guilt.  

most of all, remember--even if you're not racist or sexist, you are still racist AND sexist, no matter what. 

1) Privileged status isn’t something to be guilty about or ashamed of, but if we - as a society - care about equitable treatment for all, then it’s something worth acknowledging and  examining in the hopes of dismantling.

2) Privilege doesn’t guarantee success; it’s the wind at your back.

3) If you adopt the symbols and rhetoric of white supremacy, people will (justifiably) call you a white supremacist.

4) Carry on Pepe.

reboot wrote:

Enlighten me, what are the differences? Last I checked the two words are synonyms. When one uses the word sexism, are they talking about gender or sex?

Gender is how you identify (because your brain has developed separately from your genitals). You may have female parts, but your brain tells you that you are male/masculine orientation.

Your sex is what genital parts you have. This includes transsexuals that have a mix of parts due to their genes leading to mixed development.

Nick Drake wrote:

Good points! All have definitely done some bold routes. I'll have to look up the clip of Mayan.

Ted also a good point on grit, I usually think of Tom Randall as either looking like he's going to die in an offwidth or hanging from some horrific wooden crack because it's the media I see published the most.

Heather Weidner is in there, as well. 5.14 R trad is mighty bold. 

Pepe Climbs Rocks wrote:

Except what you are saying is not a fact, EVEN IF YOU WRITE IT IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.  It is a gross generalization and oversimplification.  

plenty of white people go to shitty schools and are stuck in towns with no economy, rampant drug problems, and limited health care.  And yes, police treat black people badly--sometimes, but they also treat white people badly too--sometimes.  

and as far as being born male goes--you're right  men have it so easy.  Working more hours than women, and taking on higher risk jobs.  Dying younger.  But yep--damn that male privilege  

am I saying privilege doesn't exist?  No.  I never said that, but what you are saying--that all members of one group are privileged over all members of another group is patently false.  You are truly ignorant of the fact that people are individuals and are not always representative of the arbitrary group in which you believe they should belong.

You are just ignorant of what it means to be Black in America.

"Privileged" in this case does not mean born rich or have anything to do with your socio-economic status.

It has everything to do with being treated better your entire life for being white instead of a person of color. That is a privilege that Black Americans don't have.

climbing friend,

the many white peoples they love shopping at whole foods and warm feelings from organic vegetable!

no your masculinity is not toxic, unless you are raging douche. it is magnificent to behold!

Kat Hessen wrote:

Someone with a "mixed" genital/reproductive presentation would not be called transsexual, they would be referred to as intersex. It's a medical condition, and is not directly related to gender identity or sexual identity, an example would be someone with xy-chromosomes whose body lacks active receptors for androgenic hormones.

I believe you are correct though some dictionaries have them as synonymous. To be honest, I was thinking of more truly hermaphroditic anatomy. Regardless, all humans of worth.

King Tut wrote:

Well now, and on our sister channel we are completely off the rails...

It ain't about being born poor. In fact there are more White Americans on food stamps than any other race...Its about opportunities after that and systemic oppression that makes it harder for other races.

Tell me, friend, have you have ever heard of a White Man getting pulled over for being White in his own nice neighborhood like routinely happens to Black Americans?

Have you ever heard of a White Man being arrested after the neighbors called the police on him for breaking into his own home in a rich neighborhood? A man who was a professor at a University?

Every single objective measure shows that Black Americans get harsher sentencing for identical crimes, of identical severity in America. Why is that?

White Privilege means you can be born poor, make it in America, and STILL none of this systemic oppression ever happens to you.

It means Black Americans have to fight this kind of discrimination every day of their lives and no matter how rich they are, the Police still treat them as suspect, doctors give them less good medical care and they get worse service in all walks of life. Of course you don't know, you aren't Black.

Oppression in America is not what it was, we ARE in a better place than we were before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act etc. even though people like you are being ginned up by politicians manipulating you for your vote.

That does not mean that White Privilege is not a fact. It is a FACT and I know, being born poor and white and still being treated respectfully wherever I go and having every door open to me. Not so for Black Americans. White Privilege is real.

I agree with a tad bit of what you have stated but would encourage you to check out Ben Shapiro here https://youtu.be/VJzkH6K_Z4I I once believed in white privilege but I honestly don't anymore as I've aged. I'm up for watching a video on your side of thinking or discussing this with you. 

At this point in time, I believe we have privileges in our society, period. Rather none based on skin color anymore. Personal choice, attitude, work ethic, tenacity, skill, etc... is what makes you successful at whatever your craft may be. And it doesn't have to be something that is socially acceptable. Happiness isn't this lush American dream we all think it is. I would ask this if you, how do you rate success? What makes someone better off than another person? Is it money? Being a professor at some university? I understand certain people may have to grind more than others to get to what they want. Such is life, I didn't ask to be born where I was, or this color of skin. No one does. Which is why we need to get past this division of race, stating white privilege is alive and well, in my opinion, is not achieving anything. 

Please note I mean this all with respect and look forward to hearing back from you. 

Kyle Taylor wrote:

I agree with a tad bit of what you have stated but would encourage you to check out Ben Shapiro here https://youtu.be/VJzkH6K_Z4I I once believed in white privilege but I honestly don't anymore as I've aged. I'm up for watching a video on your side of thinking or discussing this with you. 

At this point in time, I believe we have privileges in our society, period. Rather none based on skin color anymore. Personal choice, attitude, work ethic, tenacity, skill, etc... is what makes you successful at whatever your craft may be. And it doesn't have to be something that is socially acceptable. Happiness isn't this lush American dream we all think it is. I would ask this if you, how do you rate success? What makes someone better off than another person? Is it money? Being a professor at some university? I understand certain people may have to grind more than others to get to what they want. Such is life, I didn't ask to be born where I was, or this color of skin. No one does. Which is why we need to get past this division of race, stating white privilege is alive and well, in my opinion, is not achieving anything. 

Please note I mean this all with respect and look forward to hearing back from you. 

There is no question that the only way we can end White Privilege in this country and live up to our creed that all men deserve Equal Protection under the Law is to acknowledge it.

We have made progress and in America today Class is the principle determinant of "privilege" in our Society...

But, that does not remotely mean that White Privilege does not exist, where one (myself included) is given opportunity and treated with more respect than people of color in America.

If you are Black you get longer sentences for identical crimes of identical severity in America. Particularly minor drug infractions.

If you are Black you are more likely to get the Death Penalty for killing a white person, a White person is almost never given the Death Penalty for killing a Black person.

Black Americans are more likely to be given the Death Penalty for crimes of equal heinousness as compared to White Americans.

Black Americans have Doctors spend less time with them and they receive a lower standard of care than White Americans (I am a Doctor and have seen this study reported in the AMJ I believe).

Black Americans still live in segregated neighborhoods and even in Sacramento some neighborhood's home owner groups insist on making people sign an agreement that they will not sell to people of color (Eldorado Hills).

White Privilege means we are not victims of racism to the degree that others in America experience, in fact, it almost never happens to us (but I acknowledge that it does). It means that people rent to you, sell to you, talk nicely to you at Chick Fil-a, hire you first, fire you last, you can get a cab and the Police don't shoot you in the back... etc etc etc. 

That's what "White Privilege" means: We are not routinely the victims of racism and it makes an enormous difference in our lives even though we don't even know it.

There is a ton of real data out there. Go look for it.

ps I don't agree with Mr. Shapiro and it is disingenuous for him, a White Male to insist it doesn't exist when he simply doesn't have the experience of others. He makes a semantical argument basically baffling the congresswoman with bullshit. If racism exists, which he acknowledges, then to be free of it is a privilege. White Americans are nearly entirely free from it.

King Tut wrote:

There is no question that the only way we can end White Privilege in this country and live up to our creed that all men deserve Equal Protection under the Law is to acknowledge it.

We have made progress and in America today Class is the principle determinant of "privilege" in our Society...

But, that does not remotely mean that White Privilege does not exist, where one (myself included) is given opportunity and treated with more respect than people of color in America.

If you are Black you get longer sentences for identical crimes of identical severity in America. Particularly minor drug infractions.

If you are Black you are more likely to get the Death Penalty for killing a white person, a White person is almost never given the Death Penalty for killing a Black person.

Black Americans are more likely to be given the Death Penalty for crimes of equal heinousness as compared to White Americans.

Black Americans have Doctors spend less time with them and they receive a lower standard of care than White Americans (I am a Doctor and have seen this study reported in the AMJ I believe).

Black Americans still live in segregated neighborhoods and even in Sacramento some neighborhood's home owner groups insist on making people sign an agreement that they will not sell to people of color (Eldorado Hills).

White Privilege means we are not victims of racism to the degree that others in America experience, in fact, it almost never happens to us (but I acknowledge that it does). It means that people rent to you, sell to you, talk nicely to you at Chick Fil-a, hire you first, fire you last, you can get a cab and the Police don't shoot you in the back... etc etc etc. 

That's what "White Privilege" means: We are not routinely the victims of racism and it makes an enormous difference in our lives even though we don't even know it.

There is a ton of real data out there. Go look for it.

ps I don't agree with Mr. Shapiro and it is disingenuous for him, a White Male to insist it doesn't exist when he simply doesn't have the experience of others. He makes a semantical argument basically baffling the congresswoman with bullshit. If racism exists, which he acknowledges, then to be free of it is a privilege. White Americans are nearly entirely free from it.

There again, I agree with some of what you are saying, but how can he not say those things? Just because he is white? Have you ever heard of Larry Elder? He is Black and has the same view if not more extreme. I just read his now very old book called 10 things you can't say in America. Do you have any literature you'd recommend? I honestly just want to try to understand where you are coming from, my mind is open but I just disagree that I have the bar set for me that a person of color can't achieve, if I thought that, I'd be racist(imo).

Kalil Oldham wrote:

I watched the Ben Shapiro clip. Although it’s not entirely clear what he’s after in this context, my guess is that he’s willing to oppose individual acts of discrimination but he doesn’t want to acknowledge the existence of racist systems and institutions. I commend his willingness to stand against discrimination (though I also condemn his racist Columbus Day video: https://splinternews.com/conservative-site-shamed-into-pulling-mega-racist-colum-1819332475/amp).

My problem with this point of view - and your claims about privilege generally - is the way it disguises the underlying cause of persistent racial inequality. We live in an unequal society because for hundreds of years our institutions - in politics, housing, education, medicine, policing, sentencing, imprisonment, and elsewhere - have created policies that disadvantage certain groups of people. That’s a reality of American life since the 17th century. From the black codes to Jim Crow to social security to the GI bill to federally subsidized mortgages to the war on drugs to stop and frisk to present day hiring practices and school suspensions (look up the Greg/Emily study if you doubt this): our institutions have been built to perpetuate racial inequality. We could eliminate every instance of individual racism and we’d still have racist systems. They must change. It won’t be easy, but if we believe in an equitable society then we can’t stop trying. 

Respectfully,

Kalil

Thank you I will look that up asap.

I just see inequality, I don't see how race is a thing? Tribalism is a thing, sure. We are social creatures but I believe we have gotten into tribes too big to control. Would you argue that we have become too populated as a whole? 

Kalil Oldham wrote:

I recommend “White Like Me” by Tim Wise. It’s a smart and relatable reflection on race and privilege. As I said before, privilege doesn’t guarantee success for those who receive it, nor does it guarantee failure for those who don’t. It’s the wind at your back or the wind in your face, depending on your position. You’ve heard the expression “twice as hard”, right?

Cool, I'll check it out. Thank you. I'll admit, I'm not sure I will change my beliefs on this, as it's been pretty recent I've left the left(and my thoughts on white privilege). I don't like the right. I think we need more middle and that's why I'll read the book :) 

Kyle Taylor wrote:

Thank you I will look that up asap.

I just see inequality, I don't see how race is a thing? Tribalism is a thing, sure. We are social creatures but I believe we have gotten into tribes too big to control. Would you argue that we have become too populated as a whole? 

Tell me, Kyle: Do you drive around your town every day and see monuments glorifying those who killed other Americans to keep slavery (ie Confederate Statues)?

Schools and Libraries named after Confederates honoring their fight to have the right to murder, torture, rape and separate families at their whim? To own human beings and treat them worse then animals?

You don't see race as a thing? 

Are you fucking blind?

White Privilege means you don't see people marching in the streets honoring the men who enslaved your forefathers and raped your fore-mothers. It means you don't have to live with a statue of Robert E. Lee at your state capital or the confederate flag incorporated into your state flag (ie Mississippi today). If you don't think things like this affect other people then I can't help you no matter what reading I provide. 

You are the epitome of White Privilege because you are blind to realities like this in America. The very fact that you don't see them is proof of White Privilege because you don't have to experience racism. There is not one Black American that doesn't know about this reality, though some like Clarence Thomas hate themselves so much for the affirmative action they received that they deny it exists.

And it is your obligation to educate yourself about racial history in America, not mine.

King Tut wrote:

Tell me, Kyle: Do you drive around your town every day and see monuments glorifying those who killed other Americans to keep slavery (ie Confederate Statues)?

Schools and Libraries named after Confederates honoring their fight to have the right to murder, torture, rape and separate families at their whim? To own human beings and treat them worse then animals?

You don't see race as a thing? 

Are you fucking blind?

White Privilege means you don't see people marching in the streets honoring the men who enslaved your forefathers and raped your fore-mothers. It means you don't have to live with a statue of Robert E. Lee at your state capital or the confederate flag incorporated into your state flag (ie Mississippi today). If you don't think things like this affect other people then I can't help you no matter what reading I provide. 

You are the epitome of White Privilege because you are blind to realities like this in America. The very fact that you don't see them is proof of White Privilege because you don't have to experience racism. There is not one Black American that doesn't know about this reality, though some like Clarence Thomas hate themselves so much for the affirmative action they received that they deny it exists.

And it is your obligation to educate yourself about racial history in America, not mine.

I understand history very well. I don't choose to live in the past however. I'm close to blind btw, thankfully I have good glasses:)

my simple point is, we must move on. We really all want the same things, and not once have I argued to keep old civil war monuments btw.

You seem very pent up and upset, I'm not aiming to cause you upset. Perhaps this is why convos like this by this point online should just fade. You are a person and I respect your opinion.

I choose to educate myself daily and just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean I'm 'blind'. I don't think you are blind to anything. Herein lies my issue, division. And half of what you are talking about is in the past? How could we ever correct past mistakes? You nor I were alive then, what have you do? Guilt will not help, I can guarantee that.

Kyle Taylor wrote:

I understand history very well. I don't choose to live in the past however. I'm close to blind btw, thankfully I have good glasses:)

my simple point is, we must move on. We really all want the same things, and not once have I argued to keep old civil war monuments btw.

I choose to educate myself daily and just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean I'm 'blind'. I don't think you are blind to anything. Herein lies my issue, division. And half of what you are talking about is in the past? How could we ever correct past mistakes? You nor I were alive then, what have you do? Guilt will not help, I can guarantee that.

The Past?

That is still the State Flag of Mississippi.

Have you heard of Charlottesville?

This ain't "the past", Kyle, this is current events of 2 months ago. White Supremacists marching with burning torches:

King Tut wrote:

The Past?

That is still the State Flag of Mississippi.

Have you heard of Charlottesville?

This ain't "the past", Kyle, this is current events of 2 months ago. White Supremacists marching with burning torches:

I'm familiar, I was in Charlottesville 2 weeks after the car tragedy and unfortunately I lived in Mississippi for a short time, I hated it, mainly for the lack of outdoorsy things. Here I will say the media hyped up a lot of these things, I'm not saying there aren't racists, they come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Not just black and white. 

As for the flag? That's an argument I could care less about- your not going to please everyone- that's why I say leave it up to the state to decide what to do with their flag. Would I fly the confederate flag? No. Do I care if you do? No. Does that make me racist? No.

Kyle Taylor wrote:

I'm familiar, I was in Charlottesville 2 weeks after the car tragedy and unfortunately I lived in Mississippi for a short time, I hated it, mainly for the lack of outdoorsy things. Here I will say the media hyped up a lot of these things, I'm not saying there aren't racists, they come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Not just black and white. 

As for the flag? That's an argument I could care less about- your not going to please everyone- that's why I say leave it up to the state to decide what to do with their flag. Would I fly the confederate flag? No. Do I care if you do? No. Does that make me racist? No.

Side bar- if you've never lived in the south- you'd be surprised at how well blacks and whites live together when you turn off the news. I saw more division and separation when I lived out West. 

Kyle Taylor wrote:

I'm familiar, I was in Charlottesville 2 weeks after the car tragedy and unfortunately I lived in Mississippi for a short time, I hated it, mainly for the lack of outdoorsy things. Here I will say the media hyped up a lot of these things, I'm not saying there aren't racists, they come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Not just black and white. 

As for the flag? That's an argument I could care less about- your not going to please everyone- that's why I say leave it up to the state to decide what to do with their flag. Would I fly the confederate flag? No. Do I care if you do? No. Does that make me racist? No.

What it makes you, Kyle, is blind to the suffering of other races that are deeply wounded by such things.

That is your privilege, being White, because it never happens to you.

Wow.  This thread has taken an interesting direction.  Without (hopefully) getting too sucked in, I’ll say this:

The notion of white privilege is, I think, largely misunderstood, which is part of the reason why it is so contentious.  “White privilege” does not imply that all white people are automatically better off in every way compared to all people of color.  Obviously, there are poor white people and rich black people (one of them even became president!); rather, it refers to certain social and political realities that make whites privileged (and PoC unprivileged) in very specific ways regardless of their socioeconomic status.  It’s not that white people are never shot by cops or treated with suspicion, it’s that this doesn’t happen BECAUSE theu’re white.

Kat Hessen wrote:

You go ask Ashima, Margo, Lynn, Steph, Beth, Sasha, Pamela and all their mates how they dare be drawn to risk-taking when their testostorone levels indicate they shouldn't! I'll watch from behind a bush, hehe. 

Jokes aside, it's incredibly important to expect bravery, guts and grit from girls, just like we do from boys. Science (which we all love) proves that people and animals alike tend to act according to expectations. Don't cut anyone slack because of their gender. Boys shouldn't get a free pass on exhibiting care, empathy and obedience. Girls shouldn't get one on courage, assertiveness and the ability to deal with shit. I mean that figuratively and literally. When I found out my mother had never emptied the RV toilet because it's a "man's job", I had my dad show me how. Because that dumb-ass excuse stops with my generation. Gender equality means shared privilege AND shared responsibility. 

So fuck that study. Expect more from girls and boys outside of gender stereotypes. 

Wow, touchy?

I never claimed or even suggested there was not a spectrum of characteristics across all genders.  That was entirely your projection.

My reference to the study was in response to your mocking of the word "inherent" as well as your clichéd and wholly fabricated claims about the differences between Boy Scouts and Girl Scout programs.  You obviously don't know jack about what these organizations actually do, or why they do it, but have no problem perpetuating the mythology.  (There's a huge Girl Scout camp near Tahquitz - I suggest you set your confirmation bias aside someday and learn what they actually do there.)

And then we get a whole paragraph of your baseless extrapolations. Keep regurgitating the worn clichés and platitudes - you'll get more upvotes!

(Ok, I'll concede that the story about smashing gender barriers by cleaning the RV shitter was somewhat original...)

In the meantime some of us will keep working with youth - all youth - to help them experience the outdoors.