Inclusive Language and diversity in climbing

Ashleigh Thompson wrote:

2) hiring diverse staff, which will bring more diverse perspectives to outdoor recreation.

3) highlighting diverse people and stories in advertisements, articles, media, etc.

4) supporting initiatives that help brown people, especially youth, receive outdoor recreation opportunities that aren’t handed to them. This could be monetarily, volunteering, or simply sharing the value that the outdoors is for everyone, and that it’s not just going to happen by sitting back and doing nothing.

Boy, talk about the bigotry of low expectations. You really make "brown people" sound pathetic. 

Pepe Climbs Rocks wrote:

Actually, yes.  I started with zero knowledge.  Got my hands on some books and internet resources.  Went out and did "yer gunna die" type shit until I met folks who could teach me what the books couldn't.

That's really cool. Good work.

Alrighty.

I am an outlier in climbing. I am nothing special.

You people have argued and celebrated both points, and slapped me in the face more than a few times for being too uppity.

I live in Idaho. If you haven't figured out how to go outside and play, you are either not capable of working a door knob, or, have parents that have severely overscheduled your life.

But, yes, even here, especially now with simply playing being viewed as a death sentence for a child's future success, a great many kids don't have any clue about outdoor recreation, because their parents abd peers simply don't do those things.

A tiny percentage of the population climbs.

Gyms, like it or not, introduce people to climbing.

Even then, a tiny part of that population ever heads outdoors.

Where people die.

No, it is not as simple as 'just do it'. Even though it is that simple for most of you, and, for most of us, at least some of the time.

I've asked for partners for years. I am not the only one who has had very few people come forward. For much of the country, it is still a tiny, tiny group of people.

It is extremely intimidating to do anything new, even more so when it is challenging and you are clearly "not one of them". 

As welcoming as climbing is, and as wonderful as climbers are, I still fight this all the time. I'm a tough, proud, stubborn old lady with a whole lot of years of perspective to keep me bucked up. 

But a 20 year old, from the res, say, who can't afford to buy any of the cool looking stuff to fit in, let alone just get used functional equipment? Who can't buy gas, or muster up a car to drive? In a state/country where some people still play cowboys and Indians of one sort or another?

C'mon, folks. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

MP argues out both sides of it's mouth on this one. In the endless "where should I move" threads the appalling whiteness of SLC and other places is tossed out all the time. 

Yet....here you are, saying that's those white people not us.

Pogo had it right.

And, cripes but I am tired of having to say this, still, 

climbing is the most egalitarian pursuit I have ever been associated with.

In sixty years. 

You people are great. Step up to the ate, pay it forward, and invite people out. Sheesh. All any one is asking for is to go climbing with ya. 

Best, OLH

Politically Correct Ball wrote:

Just to be clear, my criticism was squarely aimed at you.

Ball, it is clear to all what you said, and who it was directed to.

Ashleigh Thompson wrote:

1) consultation with Indigenous groups about access issues or management practices. Access Fund already does this. Also, check out Bears Ears–the only national monument to be co-managed by tribes. And, my local climbers association (CASA) did a co-sponsored event with the Tohono O’ohdham Nation to do  trail restoration on the rez.

2) hiring diverse staff, which will bring more diverse perspectives to outdoor recreation.

3) highlighting diverse people and stories in advertisements, articles, media, etc.

4) supporting initiatives that help brown people, especially youth, receive outdoor recreation opportunities that aren’t handed to them. This could be monetarily, volunteering, or simply sharing the value that the outdoors is for everyone, and that it’s not just going to happen by sitting back and doing nothing.

1) I agree with number 1 because I do understand there are native american lands you want to try to avoid damaging (and not just native america but all lands out there should take into account what climbing in the area will do to it).

2) I am a software eng and I get tired of all the BS about hiring diverse staff. You know what I don't give a crap what your race or sex is, I want the best person for the job to have the job. My graduating class in college had a black female who was one of the top students there. I know women can be good developers but I don't know how many I have run across who aren't that good but have a job clearly for diversity sake.

3) Where do you think advertisements come from? Retail people trying to make money they could care less about what your race is. If they think putting a native american in an advertisement will make them money they will do it. At the same time if you want an article about a native american climber all you have to do is something notable. Do you think alex honnold had tons of media all over him the first time he free soloed something? No and he never did it to get articles written about him he did it because he wanted to and after a while people noticed him. Don't expect them to go looking for you, do something to make yourself stand out.

4) I love to climb. I don't care about climbing the hardest stuff out there, I just like to climb whatever. This means I ask random people at my gym all the time to climb and have taken tons of people out for their first climbs. I am all for trying to get anyone outside and away from the TV / computer (yea I know strange I am an IT person who hates computers, also scared to death of heights so go figure that one out too), I don't see why it needs to be focused on any certain group. Would be great if schools had some programs to get kids out and do some climbing and teach them about it.

I had wanted to try climbing ever since I was a little kid but knew noone who did it and no gyms where I grew up. I finally met a friend who knew of a gym that was an hour away from where we lived and we started going twice a week. We bought books and the first time I went out top roping with him I didn't even have climbing shoes only a harness. From there over time we met more people at the gym and I found people who taught me everything I needed to know from bouldering to trad. (one even had done ice climbing but never got around to trying that before he had to move out because he was military). My original climbing partner is now married and is in the SF so doesn't get to climb a ton but we still get out once in a while but I have made lots of other friends and climbing partners some of which live 10 hours away now and we have to plan week long trips to climb together. If you want to do it you will find a way.

Dave Kos wrote:

I'm all for taking kids out and have done plenty of youth-related volunteer work: Big Brothers, Inner City Outings, and a few other things.  I have 10+ pairs of kid-sized climbing shoes in my garage that I use for my own kids and their friends over the years.  Yup, that may have been me that you saw gang-roping with the noob kids at the Thin Wall.

It's usually a pretty diverse group, but I really just invite any of my kid's friends who are interested.

What I'm seeing in this thread is the unfortunate trend of people taking inventory when they see any group of people: counting the members of each race/gender/whatever and assessing a "diversity score."  My climbing companions do tend to be a diverse group, but I'm not going encourage/discourage anyone any more/less because of their superficial characteristics.  Some of the suggestions here tend to be advocating just that, and I believe it is misguided thinking.

You sound like a great guy.

Fat Dad wrote:

More importantly, you're wrong, dead wrong about silence in the face of prejudice.  People who want a better, free society have a duty to speak up and not be silent when others are attacked.  Elie Wiesel, a Nobel Laureate and death camp survivor wrote: "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."  

Please stop aggrandizing the issue. Not getting asked to the crag isn't an attack on someone's race

It makes sense that a real sport like ground-up trad climbing or mountaineering (if you see a distinction) should impose standards. It's dangerous and having a suspect partner can be a bigger wildcard than the weather. That imposes its own meritocracy which is the basis of egalitarianism, not ideology. Mettle is tested and you pass or fail.

That's primarily a nature of the sport, not of the sportsmen. 

So please, shut the hell up about this identitarian BS: we only care if you're eager and/or capable. The rest is tiresome beyond belief and eats away at camaraderie and morale replacing it with regulation and behavior I would have previously thought possible only by absolute tools!

ViperScale wrote:

1) I agree with number 1 because I do understand there are native american lands you want to try to avoid damaging (and not just native america but all lands out there should take into account what climbing in the area will do to it).

2) I am a software eng and I get tired of all the BS about hiring diverse staff. You know what I don't give a crap what your race or sex is, I want the best person for the job to have the job. My graduating class in college had a black female who was one of the top students there. I know women can be good developers but I don't know how many I have run across who aren't that good but have a job clearly for diversity sake.

3) Where do you think advertisements come from? Retail people trying to make money they could care less about what your race is. If they think putting a native american in an advertisement will make them money they will do it. At the same time if you want an article about a native american climber all you have to do is something notable. Do you think alex honnold had tons of media all over him the first time he free soloed something? No and he never did it to get articles written about him he did it because he wanted to and after a while people noticed him. Don't expect them to go looking for you, do something to make yourself stand out.

4) I love to climb. I don't care about climbing the hardest stuff out there, I just like to climb whatever. This means I ask random people at my gym all the time to climb and have taken tons of people out for their first climbs. I am all for trying to get anyone outside and away from the TV / computer (yea I know strange I am an IT person who hates computers, also scared to death of heights so go figure that one out too), I don't see why it needs to be focused on any certain group. Would be great if schools had some programs to get kids out and do some climbing and teach them about it.

I had wanted to try climbing ever since I was a little kid but knew noone who did it and no gyms where I grew up. I finally met a friend who knew of a gym that was an hour away from where we lived and we started going twice a week. We bought books and the first time I went out top roping with him I didn't even have climbing shoes only a harness. From there over time we met more people at the gym and I found people who taught me everything I needed to know from bouldering to trad. (one even had done ice climbing but never got around to trying that before he had to move out because he was military). My original climbing partner is now married and is in the SF so doesn't get to climb a ton but we still get out once in a while but I have made lots of other friends and climbing partners some of which live 10 hours away now and we have to plan week long trips to climb together. If you want to do it you will find a way.

Nice post, sir!

Regarding your field of employment, remember, my age group is the one where this barely started for women to enter "male" fields.

As I said way up thread, the male/female ratio is getting much more even, in the climbing gym, but also in those STEM majors. 

My high school valedictorian, class of 1975, became a research scientist for NASA, eventually. But, shop class was only just opening to girls, and boys were only just allowed in home ec (cooking and sewing) in the junior high classes we had. I mean that literally. My classmates were the first deemed capable of getting dirty or making a white sauce without checking their gender first, when I entered seventh grade. I was required to wear a skirt/dress to school then, too, snow or no snow. By ninth grade, the dress code was wildly out the window.

Without title nine, would little kids have soccer leagues to play in today? Probably, but that boost helped.

I do see "diversity" in climbing, because of my association with a university, which pulls students from around the country and internationally.

It's getting there.

Old ladies who climb? Not many out there, but not non-existent, and part of why I stubbornly stick with it, so others can see an unexpected face.

Best, OLH

John Kelly wrote:

Wait...I have a lump hammer and some wood landscaping stakes. Let me drive one through the heart of this thread and kill it once and for all!!!! Does that work on threads or only vampires....I'll wear garlic just in case. I'm Sicilian so no one will notice anyway! Who gets the Silver bullet...werewolves right? Just in case gonna have my pistol standing by........  

Way to go.........offended vampires, Sicilians and werevolves all in one post........... :)

PS Kelly is an Irish name........... ;)

Perhaps it's just some of the areas you guys live in. I've lived in cities all over the country large and small- not every town has a diverse population... and that's okay! Atlanta's climbing scene is diverse. It's a big city with a good mix of folks from all walks of life. There's no bigotry or hatred, stop talking about it, stop believing everything the media feeds you and maybe it'll remove itself from your rear view and you can move on. If you scream safety and scream shame perhaps you are the racist. It's 2017, no one cares who you are or where you are from, it's about you as an individual. Climb on, whomever you are! 

There have been a lot of comments sharing the opinion that there is no problem with inclusion in climbing. 

Just curious, since we can't really tell from names and pictures necessarily - but is anyone who has been sharing this opinion other than white? Or even, other than white male?

Genuinely curious! But regardless of who is holding this opinion, it is always good to recognize that your lived experience is not the only one, that others may have experienced sexism, racism, hatred, or exclusion that you have not. 

And again, in this very thread, a 12 year old was called a hateful derogatory slur.... for being in a climbing gym and not acting "lady-like"..... You may not contribute to a problem. You may not even witness a problem. But can you really, with a straight face, swear up and down that no problem exists????

Em Cos wrote:

There have been a lot of comments sharing the opinion that there is no problem with inclusion in climbing. 

Just curious, since we can't really tell from names and pictures necessarily - but is anyone who has been sharing this opinion other than white? Or even, other than white male?

Genuinely curious! But regardless of who is holding this opinion, it is always good to recognize that your lived experience is not the only one, that others may have experienced sexism, racism, hatred, or exclusion that you have not. 

And again, in this very thread, a 12 year old was called a hateful derogatory slur.... for being in a climbing gym and not acting "lady-like"..... You may not contribute to a problem. You may not even witness a problem. But can you really, with a straight face, swear up and down that no problem exists????

Latino immigrant here (and male). My opinions are a few pages back, before the thread took a seriously wrong turn. Like I stated before, I don't think minorities are actively being kept out of climbing, but maybe they are not being exposed to it in the first place. Most climbers are white, and they hang out with other white folk, so I think it's less likely that a Latino or African American will be exposed to the sport. I support outreach programs to address this, but I don't blame others if they don't. If they truly are "open and accepting" of climbers of every background, that's enough. I just want to do a little extra to expose others to the sport.

I do think that climbing has a much more serious issue with gender than ethnicity.

Em Cos wrote:

There have been a lot of comments sharing the opinion that there is no problem with inclusion in climbing. 

Just curious, since we can't really tell from names and pictures necessarily - but is anyone who has been sharing this opinion other than white? Or even, other than white male?

Genuinely curious! But regardless of who is holding this opinion, it is always good to recognize that your lived experience is not the only one, that others may have experienced sexism, racism, hatred, or exclusion that you have not. 

You seem to be asking for evidence.  The race of a person making an argument is not evidence, it's just fuel for bias.

Multiple posts on this thread have called for specific examples of sexism, racism, hatred, or exclusion that people have experienced in climbing.  Many people would like to know, because they sincerely would want to do something about it.  But there really haven't been any examples provided in response.  So far the only evidence presented has been vague generalities or stock accusations about exclusion.

At some point the lack of evidence becomes compelling.  We are 300+ posts into this thread, maybe we are at that point?

Dave Kos wrote:

You seem to be asking for evidence.  The race of a person making an argument is not evidence, it's just fuel for bias.

Multiple posts on this thread have called for specific examples of sexism, racism, hatred, or exclusion that people have experienced in climbing.  Many people would like to know, because they sincerely would want to do something about it.  But there really haven't been any examples provided in response.  So far the only evidence presented has been vague generalities or stock accusations about exclusion.

At some point the lack of evidence becomes compelling.  We are 300+ posts into this thread, maybe we are at that point?

And you cutoff Em's last sentence which is a shame since it referred to something said in this thread that was pretty illuminating about one posters real feelings.  We also got to see someone say (and apparently sincerely believe) that when you approach a man and a woman out climbing you need to get the guys permission before addressing the woman. Which is screwed up.

I've seen examples of sexism while out climbing. Only one really blatant case which happened on a week long trip with 4 men and 3 women. We were alternating partners and one of the guys was cool when he climbed with me or the other guys. With the women he expected they would do as he said and it finally led to a blowup. I've seen racism in a climbing area directed at me and my partner (I'm half Asian and he was Indian) but it came from locals not other climbers. Maybe more of a problem in the south than in other parts of the country.

Emil Briggs wrote:

And you cutoff Em's last sentence which is a shame since it referred to something said in this thread that was pretty illuminating about one posters real feelings.  We also got to see someone say (and apparently sincerely believe) that when you approach a man and a woman out climbing you need to get the guys permission before addressing the woman. Which is screwed up.

I've seen examples of sexism while out climbing. Only one really blatant case which happened on a week long trip with 4 men and 3 women. We were alternating partners and one of the guys was cool when he climbed with me or the other guys. With the women he expected they would do as he said and it finally led to a blowup. I've seen racism in a climbing area directed at me and my partner (I'm half Asian and he was Indian) but it came from locals not other climbers. Maybe more of a problem in the south than in other parts of the country.

Are you sure that was sexist or was he just an arrogant prick who always wanted his way? I have climbed with people like that and they are fine as long as you make them feel like they are in charge.

Little more details on what happened would be nice how experienced of a climber was he, the guys there, the women there, what happened etc.

Climbing will never be inclusive in my lifetime.  If you're the only other team I've seen in the last 4 days, my first reaction will still be to give you the stink eye.  Many climbers would rather other climbers didn't exist, or at least didn't exist on 'my' mountain/crag.  Love of solitude and its attendant generalized misanthropy have long been part of climbing culture.  No one gets included, just tolerated.

That said, it seems like bigots tend to take that as a green light to come here and spout nonsense.  Just because misanthropy is accepted does not imply misogyny or racism are.  You can't run around feeling oppressed on a climbing forum because someone called you racist or sexist when you said racist or sexist shit.  

If we're never going to actively invite other people in, we can actively exclude bigotry.  In ourselves and in others.  Here's an easy example: just yesterday a rare black guy came into the gym.  I thought he was probably going to be awesome; you don't see many black guys climbing so he must be way into it.  He wasn't.  But he didn't need me watching his every move just because he was black.  I need to knock that shit off.  What do you need to knock off?

ViperScale wrote:

Are you sure that was sexist or was he just an arrogant prick who always wanted his way? I have climbed with people like that and they are fine as long as you make them feel like they are in charge.

Little more details on what happened would be nice how experienced of a climber was he, the guys there, the women there, what happened etc.

No newbies. Everyone was an experienced climber. One of the women was a stronger climber than him but he didn't want to let her lead or make any decisions and since he didn't act that way with the men I'll chalk it up to sexism.

Emil Briggs wrote:

And you cutoff Em's last sentence which is a shame since it referred to something said in this thread that was pretty illuminating about one posters real feelings.  We also got to see someone say (and apparently sincerely believe) that when you approach a man and a woman out climbing you need to get the guys permission before addressing the woman. Which is screwed up.

Yes, I'm ignoring the troll and the responses to the troll's posts.