Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Rope drag when lowering on top rope
|
Yesterday I was on a top rope set up here https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/106456589 (not my photo but it is where I was set up) I noticed the rope dragging a lot on all the overhangs when lowering back down. Would it be better to rappel back down instead? Would it be dangerous to take a fall while under that roof mid route? Thanks |
|
You have a couple of options either extend the top rope setup below the first overhang or move it to the crack on the right of the overhang or rap |
Tony Kuropatwa wrote: The people I was with did not want to cut off the top part of the route by lowering the anchor excessively far but that may be the safest bet regardless |
|
That really depends on how sharp or smooth the rock quality is. There isn't a ton you can do about roofs when it comes to top-rope. I would only be alarmed if the rock was sharp at the lip or any of the connection points and there was reason to believe it could rip or abrade your rope's sheathing. You can pad the area where your rope goes over the lip with your rope bag etc. but that's only really practical in certain situations. Rappelling is almost always a better choice when it comes to protecting your rope when it's possible. But it's really up to you based on an assessment of the rock quality at the important points I lower and TR all the time and let my rope run along rock as long as it's sufficiently smooth that there isn't anything to worry about. It's best to avoid it when you can, but climbing is loaded with situations where we have to let the rope drag on rock for one reason or another, and it is generally not harmful to your rope unless the rock is sharp. |
|
Yes safer bet the other thing to consider is that having the rope drag over that edge is creating a lot of wear on that rope so with that in mind ......wanting to do the complete climb As a top rope setup I would have moved the setup a few feet to the right of the overhang allowing the rope to pass Thur the crack reducing the drag but allowing you to still climb the direct route up the overhang |
|
And as far as switching to rappel - when I get to the top clip my PAS into the carabiners, get off of belay, close the system and lower the climber end of the rope back down, set up the rappel with both sides of rope going through atc, put on autoblock, unclip PAS and rappel down - correct? |
Nicole Knight wrote: Are you cleaning the anchor? Either way, when I'm going in direct, my PAS has a biner on the end (chain-style or Petzl Connect Adjust), so I'm not going to connect it to another biner. If I were rapping without cleaning, I might clip that into the shelf (above the limiter knots on the static line, clipped into both sides), but I'd probably go into the hanger itself or a different link, if there are multiple links connected to the bolt hanger. I'm not going to clip a biner to a biner - that's a good way to cross-load one of them. Wherever I clip the PAS, I make sure that it's on top of where the rope will be when I rap, because it will be easy to remove after I weight the belay. If the rap line is on top of the PAS, the PAS biner will be held down by your weight and difficult to remove after weighting the rappel. It may even encourage you to remove the PAS before weighting the rappel and ensuring that it is properly rigged and will accept your weight, which is a Bad Idea. jg |
Josh Gates wrote: Great point thanks- I guess what I was actually picturing was clipping into the master knot mispoke- but clipping above is probably better as you explained. no not cleaning the anchor, the anchor is a static rope set off of trees, if I were to rappel it would be for the sake of reducing the rope drag on the multiple roofs in the route |
|
|
|
I'm comfortable rappelling just haven't switched from toprope to rappel yet. Walking down is definently an option I didn't consider climbing past the anchor but I guess it's ok since I'm on dynamic rope. Lots of great info - Thanks for the help everyone! |
Nicole Knight wrote: To state the obvious, also weight the rappel before you undo your pas. And practice swapping over. You can do this off of the towel bar in the bathroom, a tree in the backyard, almost anyplace, unweighted. You can also lean your phone up and film yourself, so you can check to see what you missed or messed up. Just make sure you are 200% sure of yourself, and go slow anyway. How did you set up the top rope? Climb up, as guy said, reverse that process, and walk off. Rappeling or lowering, either one, if it was me, I'd almost certainly whack something on a roof going down, so I would definitely have a helmet, lol! YMMV, of course. Best, OLH |
|
Doesn't look like a route I would want to top rope. Looks more like a trad lead pitch that you would want to belay the second up and walk off or rappel down, but you are probably going to cause some rope damage to rappel (not the end of the world but without being there and seeing it in person can't say how bad it is). Don't forget ropes are design to take some damage but depending on how bad the rock is you may not want to top rope something like that. |
|
"Dangerous"? Doubt it. Totally going to wear out your rope quickly if you don't extend the master point out, though. |
Nicole Knight wrote: If you haven't cleaned an anchor and then rappelled, you should get someone who knows what they're doing to go over it with you to make sure that you haven't missed any of the finer points. Sure, you could read about it in a book or seek advice online (which you should also do), but the process of transitioning from belay to rappel is a zero-tolerance scenario; one mistake can kill you. Given the severity of the consequences, personal instruction seems like the way to go. Also, as Guy said, if you can walk off, do so. Easier on your rope, much harder to mess up, often faster, and improves your fitness! |
|
Like Guy said, walking off is a third alternative that is often overlooked. But I would not recommend it for total beginners or anyone who is generally not confident as it does require them to be at the top unanchored and throwing the rope effectively is a skill that takes a little practice. Rapping is never safer than lowering in an ordinary toprope session unless your belayer is incompetent, but then you have other problems. Looks like lowering off that particular route would make your rope fuzzy pretty quickly but I would still err on the side of safety and lower rather than rappel. |
Dave Kos wrote: An actual question, not being snippy. Why would they be "required to be unanchored" at the top of the crag? How did the top rope get attached to the tree in the first place? If they used a tether at the top to setup, couldn't the process just be reversed? Thanks! We don't have trees, by the way. A walkoff here would probably mean a belay by a climber who could do so from the top and need to be pretty experienced using a stance. Best, OLH |
|
Old Lady H ..... you can be untied at the top of a cliff, if it truly is a TOP....and be 100% safe. One must be most careful climbing above the "master-point" you would not wish to take a lead fall. At Josh this was the standard way, if the top is rounded and its still hard to get all the way to the top - that makes you do the crux- (top out mantle). I am thinking EB GB .... I was watching some folks TR it... they had this "master point" about 17 feet below the top.... totally missing the BEST part. |
Guy Keesee wrote: Guy, the statement about having to be untied at the top is what made no sense! If they could get the rope tossed over for a top rope safely, surely they could throw a tether they could attach to, if not the anchor setup going back to the tree? One of my friends is a local FA, from way, way back. Everything then was ground up, and over the top. He told me, that is the most "interesting" part of the routes, lol! I do have one on my list I intend to do just that, climb past the anchor to the top, and I'll be thinking of the FA when I do so, for sure! Might ask if he'll come give me the top part belay, even. Best, Helen Edit to add: Nicole, Guy's correct about hanging and setting up to rap. Practice on the ground until you've got it, then set up a weighted practice session, just high enough to hang. Don't rap if you haven't got it nailed, and take your time about it even if you do. It's completely unforgiving of mistakes. |
Old lady H wrote: I think the point being considered is that ONE person would have to set up a TR and be untethered when they walk up there (unless they lead) but having every single person walk down is different. It also would require them to untie, pull, coil and throw the rope down every time. Personally, I think it's not that practical of an idea. If it were my rig I'd figure out a way to set up the TR so it could be used as TRs usually are, without destroying the rope or endangering anyone. If you can't get that worked out then it's not the right climb for a TR. Not all of them are. |
Old lady H wrote: If the plan is to walk off after reaching the top, one can certainly anchor themselves before untying and I would recommend being anchored when throwing the rope because it is helpful to be close to the edge when doing the toss. Yes, the process should basically be the reverse of what was done for the setup (assuming setup was done by walking up.) But of course at some point you have to remove the anchor so that you can walk away. That's what I meant. |
|
I think OLH is right about a large number of situations, but maybe not all of them. If the anchor is back from the edge and the ground is not steep and unstable, then the ciimber can tether in to the anchor, untie and either throw or lower the rope back down, and walk down. The cliffs in the photos look small and walking down is probably simple. This is a lot better for the health and longevity of the rope even if there aren't sharp edges, and considering how much seems to go wrong nowadays with both lowering and rappelling, is probably a lot better for the health and longevity of the climber too. Nowadays people mindlessly lower off even when there is a simple safe walk-down because...it seems simpler? In some situations, which would be known ahead of time, the vicinity of the anchor is dangerous ground, and then the dangers of lowering or rappelling might be comparable to walking off, rather than being worse, in which case lowering or rappelling is the way to go. To try to pin down what "dangerous ground" might mean, ask what happens if a person standing at the anchor but not tethered to anything trips and falls. If the result is they end up sitting next to the anchor, then that isn't dangerous ground. If the result is that they slide, roll, and tumble over the edge, then the ground is dangerous. If you have a very inexperienced person on their first outdoor climb, then someone should be at the top to help them navigate back down the first few times. If there are only two of you, then the experienced person can belay from the top---believe it or not all upper-belayed climbing used to be done this way. One of the peculiar byproducts of the slingshot upper belay is that there is are now people who have remarkably little ability to navigate in the outdoors---they can climb up some rocks as long as they are lowered back down. |
