Sport climber looking to get first trad rack.

Xam wrote:

Point taken but no need to overstate your case...Totems retail in the US at $83 each so perhaps ~$850 in totems for a 10 cam rack.

Kailas (maker of Totems) lists them for $109 each. 

There is always some deal out there that will make a liar out of anyone. 

:)

Wow that's a big price bump! Is that US dollars? One link I looked at said HK dollars...

I wonder if Totem is not making money and have teamed with Kailas for all their distribution. I can't find a front range store that carries them any more.

King Tut wrote:

Kailas (maker of Totems) lists them for $109 each. 

There is always some deal out there that will make a liar out of anyone. 

:)

No need to get into online bickering but you have it backwards...Totem makes the cams, which are re-branded as Kailas and sold at a markup online, although the Kailas do go down to more reasonable $76 each for the set of 5.    You can also get them shipped direct from Totem but the DHL costs will kill you.  

$82.95 seems to be the standard retail on Totems in the US, although I have seen them on sale for lower...I just got two from campsaver for $63 each shipped.  Like I said, no need to overstate your case.

I agree with KT except for the Totems.  They have greater holding power, especially in flares,  significantly narrower heads, making for increased placement options, walk less, and are harder to get stuck.  They have 4 cams and place exactly like any other cam---no special knowledge is required, so their is no reason not to start out with them if you have the bucks. A BD Camalot lists for $65--$75, the equivalent Totems are about $83, so certainly not double the list price.  But you can often get conventional cams used, and there are also sales on conventional cams, usually about 25% off, so you might be able to get Camalots for $49--$56, still not half the Totem price but significantly less. 

If you mostly climb in an area with uniform cracks, the Totem's biggest advantage, narrow head width, won't matter.  If your usual climbing areas have non-uniform placements, then there will  be instances when you can get a Totem in but not a conventional cam, and I'd say that, especially for a beginner, this is a significant advantage. 

The best compromise is to get a set of Totems and a set of conventional cams.  This is what I use, because I already owned a ton of conventional cams when Totems came out.  Whenever they fit, I place the conventional cams first, and save the Totems for narrower placements, if they show up.  It seems quite rare that I actually need two Totems in the same size for any one pitch, so this combo is pretty effective.

As for cordelettes, they have some uses.  I typically carry a sewn 8mm dyneema one, which is very light and compact.  I'd guess I use it for maybe 10% of my anchors, but it is very handy when you need it, for example a remote anchor that is far from a preferable belayer position.  The disadvantage of the thin material is that the power point knot can be very hard to untie if you have to hang on the anchor (consider clipping a biner through the knot to aid in loosening), and of course frequent inspections and early retirement are mandatory with such fragile materials.

Xam wrote:

No need to get into online bickering but you have it backwards...Totem makes the cams, which are re-branded as Kailas and sold at a markup online, although the Kailas do go down to more reasonable $76 each for the set of 5.    You can also get them shipped direct from Totem but the DHL costs will kill you.  

$82.95 seems to be the standard retail on Totems in the US, although I have seen them on sale for lower...I just got two from campsaver for $63 each shipped.  Like I said, no need to overstate your case.

What we have here is a failure to communicate, though I certainly am guilty of chosing the worst case scenario as that might be needed to complete one's rack. This is not internet bickering but we are not always communicating or taking the pearls from each other's posts. :)

1. One reason to not recommend Totems to a beginners is "ease of placement", imo. The overly floppy cables take a significant bit more touch to control the head. Not something I would want a beginner playing with on his first leads.

2. They are more expensive, and despite short term sales that some find and take advantage of, one is more likely to have to pay full price new rather than buying used.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112939616/fs-kailas-totem-cams-basic-cams-nuco-and-nuts-preorder-black-and-orange-totem or have to use such resources that are a bit more complicated than buying from a regular online retailer. Regular retailers are often out of stock of them as well.

3. A review like this is done by guys with more climbing experience than this entire forum put together should carry some weight as to what a beginner might choose:

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/climbing/best-climbing-cams

However, these reviews can be "granite-centric" and others may prefer other cams in other rock types.

4. Buying used generic cams and regular (non-offset) nuts, that have thousands of people happily using them out there, is a better place for a beginner to start rather than sending him straight to a more advanced tool that takes more learning to use, imo. Offset nuts v. non-offset is area dependent however, in my experience.

5. Primarily, it is useful to have the same cams your partners are likely to have, as repetition with the same type breeds familiarity that is useful "in the clutch". Far less time is spent choosing the right cam when you have consistent sizing and coloration to choose from. When you and your partner combine racks (esp at the beginning) having familiarity with the same type is useful.

6. After that, a good nut (and cam) cleaning tool is useful.

7. This is not a discussion about which is the best cam for an experienced leader pushing his limits on test-pieces. But what is the reasonable path for a beginning leader to take.

:)

King Tut wrote:

What we have here is a failure to communicate, though I certainly am guilty of chosing the worst case scenario as that might be needed to complete one's rack. This is not internet bickering but we are not always communicating or taking the pearls from each other's posts. :)

No communication failure. I agree with all your points...simply disagree with your choice of comparison pricing, which I think is cherry picking.  I think my retail cost on Totems is a fair comparison to your used cost on BD cams.  I hope that is now clear.

Since nobody else answered this part (I think) I'm gonna go ahead and say that I personally can't stand the bulk of nylon slings.

Go put 5 alpine draws on your already crowded harness and a few more slings around your shoulder (in nylon then in dyneema) and see the difference. It's pretty major imo. But I'm also a weakling, so maybe that's it.

one mastercam 00 is enough (is that the grey? I think it is.) I rarely ever place that size and I find the c3 000 a better fit for when I do need something that small.

#2 Mastercam overlaps with .4 C4 a bit. I'd get one #2 and one .4.

Other than that, looks good! Oh, I usually bring 8-12 quickdraws/slings but 4 seems low.

rgold wrote:

All points well taken, Rich.

In a nutshell I would say "buy used for your first rack, cams like the Camalot are more universal and will allow you to combine racks with your partners with less confusion when starting and being widely available used will save you significant coin".

King Tut wrote:

1. One reason to not recommend Totems to a beginners is "ease of placement", imo. The overly floppy cables take a significant bit more touch to control the head. Not something I would want a beginner playing with on his first leads.

I don't really see this problem in any except the largest cam, and even then I don't think it's a significant problem.

2. They are more expensive, and despite short term sales that some find and take advantage of, one is more likely to have to pay full price new rather than buying used.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112939616/fs-kailas-totem-cams-basic-cams-nuco-and-nuts-preorder-black-and-orange-totem or have to use such resources that are a bit more complicated than buying from a regular online retailer. Regular retailers are often out of stock of them as well.

No one is claiming Totems are cheaper. The only claim I'm seeing here is that if you have the money, they may be worth the extra cost.

3. A review like this is done by guys with more climbing experience than this entire forum put together should carry some weight as to what a beginner might choose:

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/climbing/best-climbing-cams

However, these reviews can be "granite-centric" and others may prefer other cams in other rock types.

Okay, "more climbing experience than this entire forum put together" is just not true. Also, experienced climbers also like Totems, i.e. https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/one_cam_to_rule_them_all.

4. Buying used generic cams and regular (non-offset) nuts, that have thousands of people happily using them out there, is a better place for a beginner to start rather than sending him straight to a more advanced tool that takes more learning to use, imo. Offset nuts v. non-offset is area dependent however, in my experience.

I agree with you on offsets vs. non-offsets being area dependent.

It's just not correct to say Totems are more complicated to use for free climbing, which is how most beginners will use them. Yes, the manual is longer, because there are a lot more ways you can use Totem cams, i.e. two-lobe placements for aid. But you can ignore all of the extra ways to use Totem cams for aid if you are only using them for free climbing.

7. This is not a discussion about which is the best cam for an experienced leader pushing his limits on test-pieces. But what is the reasonable path for a beginning leader to take.

Is it unreasonable to think that a beginner might just want the best gear, or want gear that they can grow into?

King Tut wrote:

4, Don't buy a cordalette. Macrame will not make your anchor safe. Learn to tie in with the rope.

There are many reasons to tie in with a rope rather than a cordalette, but you're making it seem like cordalettes are somehow less safe here. That's not accurate.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

There are many reasons to tie in with a rope rather than a cordalette, but you're making it seem like cordalettes are somehow less safe here. That's not accurate.

This is going outside the topic of this thread, but it has been repeatedly demonstrated that cordalettes do not produce the equalization they were originally thought to do, it is mythical. While I certainly must concede the topic is not yet settled, it is arguable that tying in with the rope in such a way as to limit extension is far safer due to the dynamic reduction of load as compared to relatively static slings and cords.

This is not to say the cordalette has zero utility, but its use (as has been discussed in other threads) can mask the importance of simply having bomber placements to begin with. They are less safe, imo, when the user thinks by mythical equalization they have achieved safety, rather than finding better anchors to begin with.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Is it unreasonable to think that a beginner might just want the best gear, or want gear that they can grow into?

Yes, when it is not truly established that Totems are ideal for beginners for all of the reasons discussed.

And, rather than recommending the purchase of a rarely seen and more expensive piece of gear that might/might not have some advantages I posit it is more desirable to have more units of simpler designs that one can quickly become more familiar and ones more likely to be found on another partner's rack. One needs mileage placing the same cams over and over to get truly proficient.

I contend, that this is not a "what is the best cam made thread" but more of "what is best for a beginner to buy" sort of thread (OP can correct me).

They are not the same thing and I maintain it is better for a beginner to buy Camalots (used) before venturing to the latest and greatest fashion at greater cost until those units are more ubiquitous.

King Tut wrote:

This is going outside the topic of this thread, but it has been repeatedly demonstrated that cordalettes do not produce the equalization they were originally thought to do, it is mythical. While I certainly must concede the topic is not yet settled, it is arguable that tying in with the rope in such a way as to limit extension is far safer due to the dynamic reduction of load as compared to relatively static slings and cords.

This is not to say the cordalette has zero utility, but its use (as has been discussed in other threads) can mask the importance of simply having bomber placements to begin with. They are less safe, imo, when the user thinks by mythical equalization they have achieved safety, rather than finding better anchors to begin with.

Okay, that's a fairly significant backpedal from what you said previously, which you've done a few times now on this thread. Please try to say what you mean the first time.

EDIT: I was being a bit rude and reconsidered.

King Tut wrote:

And, rather than recommending the purchase of a rarely seen and more expensive piece of gear

Totems aren't by any means rare. They're definitely not as common as C4s, but I've seen them on another person's rack every weekend I've been to the Gunks this summer.

 that might/might not have some advantages

Which advantages are you contesting? Do you think the camming angle doesn't mean they hold better in outward flares? Or that the separately cammed lobes don't hold better in slight offsets or uneven placements? Or that the narrower heads don't allow them to fit into pockets? Or that they aren't lighter than C4s?

I posit it is more desirable to have more units of simpler designs that one can quickly become more familiar 

I posit that the usage of the Totems is nearly identical to the C4s for free climbing, so familiarity takes the same amount of time, and that the more complex design and more complex aid usage are irrelevant.

I contend, that this is not a "what is the best cam made thread" but more of "what is best for a beginner to buy" sort of thread (OP can correct me).

Agreed. Which begs the question, why shouldn't a beginner just buy the best cams made? You seem to be saying:

1. Comparing Kalais retail price for individual Totem cams, the most expensive way to get Totems, with buying used C4s, the cheapest way to get C4s. Totems are more expensive, but not that much more expensive, and you get more for your money.
2. A completely inaccurate idea that Totems are more complicated to use.
3. Ubiquity, which while it is a benefit, isn't a very large benefit, and will likely change as more people get Totems.

My position remains:

If you can afford a double rack of Totems, get it. If you can't afford a double rack of Totems, get a double rack of Ultralight Master Cams (which are cheaper than C4s) in the smaller sizes and C4s in the larger sizes--quantity is more useful than quality as long as they're cams by a reputable manufacturer.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Okay, that's a fairly significant backpedal from what you said previously, which you've done a few times now on this thread. Please try to say what you mean the first time.

EDIT: I was being a bit rude and reconsidered.

Yea, no need to go there. I don't consider it a backpedal at all, but you are welcome to your opinion. :).

The onus is on the reader to see the truth of a post, not on the poster to post with perfect clarity every single time we type out a blurb (I suppose at the risk of being responded to rudely) but that is a risk I am willing to take. Look for truths in another's words, not nitpicking is my motto. :)

Stitching together an anchor with "macrame" ie multiple static slings/cords in some vain attempt at "equalization" is a fool's errand. Minimizing extension and the use of dynamic cord is the best we can do. Testing has shown that tying in with the rope can reduce forces by as much as half as compared to dynema slings. This will save your life, not a cordalette.

best regards

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Totems aren't by any means rare. They're definitely not as common as C4s, but I've seen them on another person's rack every weekend I've been to the Gunks this summer.

Which advantages are you contesting? Do you think the camming angle doesn't mean they hold better in outward flares? Or that the separately cammed lobes don't hold better in slight offsets or uneven placements? Or that the narrower heads don't allow them to fit into pockets? Or that they aren't lighter than C4s?

I posit that the usage of the Totems is nearly identical to the C4s for free climbing, so familiarity takes the same amount of time, and that the more complex design and more complex aid usage are irrelevant.

Agreed. Which begs the question, why shouldn't a beginner just buy the best cams made? You seem to be saying:

1. Comparing Kalais retail price for individual Totem cams, the most expensive way to get Totems, with buying used C4s, the cheapest way to get C4s. Totems are more expensive, but not that much more expensive, and you get more for your money.
2. A completely inaccurate idea that Totems are more complicated to use.
3. Ubiquity, which while it is a benefit, isn't a very large benefit, and will likely change as more people get Totems.

My position remains:

If you can afford a double rack of Totems, get it. If you can't afford a double rack of Totems, get a double rack of Ultralight Master Cams (which are cheaper than C4s) in the smaller sizes and C4s in the larger sizes--quantity is more useful than quality as long as they're cams by a reputable manufacturer.

C'mon man, the Gunks is not "ubiquitous" by any stretch and this is precisely why the OP should clarify where he intends to climb.

The **point** of comparing pricing is even at **best** you are not going to find used Totems (as yet in any quantity) and at best prices you are paying $80 for a new Totem, v $40 or less for a perfectly good used Camalot. **THAT** is the point. And we agree that more quantity is more useful than any other factor as you simply need a lot of cams to lead routes.

Save your money and get twice as many Camalots or more. That is my advice for a first trad rack.

As well, you may not be aware of what I mean by "familiarity" with cams if the Gunks is your reference. "Familiarity" in this case is recognizing precisely what cam you need (ie look at crack and say "I need a purple") and then being able to find it right away on the rack and plug it in without sizing error. Mixed racks, with cams from different manufacturers, can be very confusing, having to look at the size of the cam, rather than being able to consistently look for just the right color racking biner or sling until you get more familiar with the mixed bag. Sustained crack climbing utilizes this skill routinely and on no sustained route should any new trad leader be mixing their cams unless unavoidable. They will have a better time learning to use doubles to triples or more of all the same kind (w/e they are), instead of clusterfucking with the rack trying to find the right size with a jumble of sling colors.

Buying the same cams your partners are likely to have makes this simpler, imo.

This is Crack Climbing 101 and informs my perspective, for better or worse.

And I can certainly see your perspective, climbing at the Gunks, that cams that are ideal for horizontal placements float your boat.

Other than that, discussion of the pros and cons of the Totem are outside the topic of this thread.

best

King Tut wrote:

As well, you may not be aware of what I mean by "familiarity" with cams if the Gunks is your reference. "Familiarity" in this case is recognizing precisely what cam you need (ie look at crack and say "I need a purple") and then being able to find it right away on the rack and plug it in without sizing error. Mixed racks, with cams from different manufacturers, can be very confusing, having to look at the size of the cam, rather than being able to consistently look for just the right color racking biner or sling until you get more familiar with the mixed bag. Sustained crack climbing utilizes this skill routinely and on no sustained route should any new trad leader be mixing their cams unless unavoidable. They will have a better time learning to use doubles to triples or more of all the same kind (w/e they are), instead of clusterfucking with the rack trying to find the right size with a jumble of sling colors.

Familiarity is just as necessary in the Gunks as anywhere else. If anything it's more necessary in the Gunks. In horizontals, you can't just base your size guess on your previous placement, because every horizontal is a completely different crack.

There wasn't really a good reason for you to be condescending to Gunks climbers here.

Other than that, discussion of the pros and cons of the Totem are outside the topic of this thread.

Pros and cons of Totems for a sport climber looking to get their first trad rack are completely inside the topic of this thread, especially if you're recommending they don't get Totems because, in your words, they "might/might not have some advantages". You were happy to talk about the supposed and real disadvantages of Totems for this entire thread, but now that I ask you why you're pretending they might not have any advantages, it's off topic? No.

Totems have advantages. The advantages I listed were: holding better in outward flares due to higher cam angle, holding better in slight offsets due to separately-loaded lobes, narrower heads fitting more places, lighter than C4s. You claimed they might not have advantages in this topic, so it's completely on topic for me to ask you to explain why you think that. It's not off topic suddenly just because you don't want to admit they have advantages.

Incidentally, none of the advantages I listed have anything to do with Gunks horizontals: all are advantageous in vertical cracks as well.

Sorry guy, you can claim to want to have a discussion as to what the best cam in the world is or not, which is very much in dispute, but that is not the topic of this thread. 

This thread has to do with what someone should get for their first rack.

As far as a beginning trad leader is concerned nothing you list is of significance as compared to "bang for your buck", likely duplication of your partner's gear and ergo increased familiarity by using more of the same type of cam. Most of the features you list are of little consequence in the real world for a beginning trad leader who should not be concerned with shaving literally a few grams, placing in outward flares or offsets and a more narrow head at the price of floppiness, less ease of handling, more bulk and a wonky sling...all for twice the price, as previously discussed. That is **if** due to the limited production of Totems you can even find them in stock nor are they available in a full range of sizes.

I contend that most of those "advantages" you list can only be utilized by advanced judgement after some time with cams, and are not selling points I would push on a beginning trad leader. Generic cams with good handling at a great price **used** is what I recommend to start your first rack, unless your area has some particular need that locals can inform you about.

Take it or leave it.

Hey Guys, I found a great deal here in Canada through MEC (REI) gear swap!

I picked up the following for 360$ CAD.

2x 0.75 C4

2x #1 C4

2x #2 C4

2x #3 C4

2x #4 C4

I realize that I'm missing smaller cams, so does anyone have any suggestions? I was thinking of just picking up 0.3 0.4 0.5 C4, but maybe I could pick up a few totems to replace these sizes? Anyone have any suggestions?

In addition to the cams, I'll be picking up a set of DMM Wallnuts, and will have a total of 6x yellow dyneema bd alpine quickdraws, 6x regular quickdraws, and a nut tool.