Top belay bd guide by wire?

There are two problems here:

1. She didn't know how to set up the system she was using.
2. She didn't stop and either get help or set up a system she knew how to use.

Problem 1 is easy to fix: teach her how to use it in guide mode.

Problem 2 is much harder to fix--it involves working around the pride/fear-of-seeming-ignorant that caused her to keep going without saying anything, and she's likely to get defensive about it. But simply fixing problem 1 doesn't fix problem 2--there are too many cases in climbing where she needs to stop and ask a question or do something she knows how to do, and if she's not capable of that, it's only a matter of time before she gets herself or someone else killed. Being able to admit to yourself/others when you don't know something is a life-and-death skill in climbing.

Jonathan Awerbuch wrote:

I had a near miss climbing with my SO, and I can very much relate to your situation. After I cooled off for a few days, I decided to buy her a private day of climbing instruction with a guide, focusing on reviewing the safety systems. It was great for both of us. She regained some confidence, and had a few good tips to share afterwards. (She insisted on paying for it in the end, which was a nice gesture).

I don't think it's helpful to place blame. It was an unfortunate event, that's all. She is partly responsible, because it is implicit that her partner's life depends on setting up the belay properly, and so if there is any doubt then she needs to ask and/or find an alternate course of action. I'm sure she had been shown the correct way to set up guide mode.

If someone gets behind the wheel and runs over a pedestrian and kills them, we don't blame the person who taught them to drive. At some point the person is responsible for their own mistakes. But yes, if you are her primary mentor, then there are things you could have done to prevent this too. If you are the main person she climbs with, encourage her to go out climbing with other people -- your friends, find people on MP, whatever.

*Edit to add: Do show her what you wrote on here. In fact, she could read this whole thread. It's very important to be candid, and can be hard to be totally honest with how you feel. She needs to know.

Wow! What a great response. That helps both of you, and defuses the whole thing nicely. Wish my "mentor" had thought of this! The sharing part, not the buying. Almost everyone could/should still be learning.

Best, Helen

tyler bostwick wrote:

 We have done many multi pitches before and she's fine with leading and top belaying.

This is the part that gets me. Apparently, she know's the correct way (and there's more than one way) to belay from the top, but didn't this time. This can be an unforgiving sport, where a one-time mistake is fatal. "I forgot" is an inadequate excuse. 

 The OP stated she is familiar with top belay. But this does not mean she is familiar with the auto block set up.   He really should come on here to clarify. But maybe he is now just lurking because he is not getting the support he hoped for. 

FrankPS wrote:

This is the part that gets me. Apparently, she know's the correct way (and there's more than one way) to belay from the top, but didn't this time. This can be an unforgiving sport, where a one-time mistake is fatal. "I forgot" is an inadequate excuse. 

Actually, that was my first thought reading this also.

Jake, and all, as the less experienced, this is on both parties, IMO. If you are the experienced one, you have an obligation to be certain it is clear that your partner knows what they are doing, what your expectations are of them, and that you are both on the same page for the next little bit coming up.

On the noobish side, I always let everyone I might be climbing with know that I am exactly as advertised, and state what I can, and cannot do for them. If there's a problem I am unaware of, I need you to let me know. I also need to be straight with you if I'm not dialed on something, or hesitant about it, or, if I see something that is "off" somehow, even as a noob I need to speak up.

Both have to remember it's a partnership, with high stakes.

Best, Helen

BrokenChairs wrote:

I'm my minds eye I was picturing the wire being the main load bearing portion. Trying to picture the way someone would try to rig a guide mode belay if they knew you used two binders but clipped the wire as stated. (Pic 1) which would not hold

Configured like in this picture and she was trying to hold it out to the side from what I could tell to have some amount of friction if I had fallen.

She has done top belays many times and knows how to set it up but we hadn't done a multi-pitch for a few weeks and apparently had forgotten. I'll share some of the blame for not reminding her at ground level, but I also expect my climbing partner to ask when they are not sure of something.

I agree with most on this thread, I think she's learned her lesson, I actually mentioned it as soon as I'd secured myself to the chains and then didn't mention it again til we were on the ground, I even made the point that she would likely never make that mistake again!

Sorry created this thread last night and forgot all about it until now...

tyler bostwick wrote:

I'm posting this here because I need some outside perspectives. I had an incident about a week ago that's still bothering me and almost caused me to break down afterwards. 

I went climbing with my gf a week ago in ogden canyon on a route called Utah crack. It's an easy 5.6 trad climb with two pitches and belay stations with chains. We have done many multi pitches before and she's fine with leading and top belaying. I had her lead the first pitch to get her some trad experience. 

She took a while to set up the belay but never acted like anything was wrong or out of the ordinary, once she said belay was on I said climbing, she said climb on and away I went. I climbed up, cleaning gear as I went and thinking that this could be a good free solo climb some day. It never crossed my mind I might be actually free soloing at that very moment! 

So anyways, once I get up to where she's belaying I take a look at the chains and immediately realize I had essentially been free soloing... 

She'd set up the belay (bd guide) hanging from the wire on the belay device, not the hole in the belay device. So not only is that wire not designed to take falls, the device wasn't even set up in an autobloc! She even told me that she took a long time to set it up because she couldn't figure out why the autobloc wasn't working! 

I corrected her as calmly as I could and lead the next pitch but the anger was building inside of me. By the time we rappeled down I couldn't talk. I sat there with my head in my hands for a few minutes before asking why she didn't ask for help and why she didn't just rappel back down if she wasn't comfortable with the setup. 

I never did get a good answer why just some belated apologies. 

Now I'm not sure what to do. I'm really not even excited to climb with her anymore, I know it seems like an overreaction but when something like that happens to you some weird emotions come out. 

Do I forgive her and move on or is this a cause for bigger concern? 

climbing friend,

your judgment is quite far from the reality, "she is fine with leading and top belaying" -- I think not myah

she does not know how to top belay if she can't set it up quite proper every single time, and is crazy enough to not read instruction manual and to think that belaying off the loop wire is reasonable.  for obvious she required a much more instructions and/or the practicings. perhaps do not blame the other and take some personal responsibility for your own poor judgment for choosing to climbing with someone who has no idea how to belay. For obvious, you as the sexy angry boyfriend could have bothered to be aware of her actual skill level yes, myah?

I prescribe 17 years silent cave meditations for you both, until you may more clearly see true nature reality, no longer blinded by frantic mind, selfishness, hostility, and attachment.

all your 5.6 flash are belong to me.

tyler bostwick wrote:

 but I also expect my climbing partner to ask when they are not sure of something.

As her mentor/teacher have you actually communicated this to her explicitly?  Did you reminder her again when she set off to get some trad experience?  Did you give her some kind of instruction for what to do if problems arise?

Without trying to pass judgement on the dynamics of your relationship, I will say that in *general* it's common that a lack of patience with a partner when they make mistakes/are learning can make them pretty afraid to admit when they don't know something.  Which usually stresses them out and leads to these kind of situations where they try to act without resorting to asking for help.  Your initial post with how angry you became makes me worried that this is the case.  Especially since I think the fault here is really like 80% yours.

tyler bostwick wrote:

I corrected her as calmly as I could and lead the next pitch but the anger was building inside of me. By the time we rappelled down I couldn't talk. I sat there with my head in my hands for a few minutes before asking why she didn't ask for help and why she didn't just rappel back down if she wasn't comfortable with the setup. 

I never did get a good answer why just some belated apologies. 

Now I'm not sure what to do. I'm really not even excited to climb with her anymore, I know it seems like an overreaction but when something like that happens to you some weird emotions come out. 

Do I forgive her and move on or is this a cause for bigger concern? 

For the sake of your relationship, you need to address your concerns with her. It's going to be hard and she's going to get defensive and you're going to get defensive and everyone is going to be unhappy at the end of the conversation BUT if you don't, you need to realize that the "anger building inside of me", "couldn't talk", "sat there with my head in my hands", and "not even excited to climb with her" is nonverbal rhetoric that she received already. You don't bring it up, she's going to react in her own way to the received conversation from those unspoken points of communication. 

The obvious and generic approach to the conversation will go like: 

• you acknowledge that the situation was stressful for both of you, 
• you express your emotional feelings about the incident, 
• you allow her to respond with her emotional feelings about the incident, 
• neither of you try to change the other's feelings or justify your own feelings that are counter to the other's, 
• you ask her what you can do next time to support her in situations where she's unclear AND what you can do to support her before a situation becomes unclear, 
• if she doesn't have any ideas, suggest a few that you would like in her situation and ask if those adjustments are ok with her,
•  finish with giving her some suggestions of ways she can support you in situations that are similar. 
• Finally, review these supportive agreements at the start or the approach or the drive to the next time you climb together. 

As you'll probably see, the main point of all of this will be to focus on what you guys can do moving forward to support each other NOT what she has to do to not mess up again. Doesn't matter if she or you are 100% to blame, no one responds well to situations where they feel like they're being attacked because chances are, they're already attacking themselves and no one needs a partner to help them attack themselves, only to support them when things go bagalaar. 

tyler bostwick wrote:

Sorry created this thread last night and forgot all about it until now...

I'm calling bs. You don't make a thread like this and then "forget all about it". 

Gavin Towey wrote:

 in *general* it's common that a lack of patience with a partner when they make mistakes/are learning can make them pretty afraid to admit when they don't know something.  Which usually stresses them out and leads to these kind of situations where they try to act without resorting to asking for help. 

This is a good observation.

General note: Having a less-skilled SO be your main climbing partner is surefire recipe for frustration and resentment for both people (unless you don't care about pushing the grades and getting your vert quota for the day). My wife and I, who are four number grades apart, were in this situation for a while and both decided that we each needed to have our own commensurately-skilled try-hard partner. When we climb together now, it's much more enjoyable.

Yup, that means that I climb 5.4 and she climbs 5.8. ;-)

Fritz N. wrote:

Yup, that means that I climb 5.4 and she climbs 5.8. ;-)

I liked the comment above about not blaming the teacher of the driver for running over the pedestrian. At some point, the person you mentored is considered independent. It's a judgement call when, but the mentor isn't forever responsible for the person they taught. Every mistake that person makes, after that, does not become the mentor's fault. On the other hand, you are responsible for assessing whom you climb with, who you pick for a partner (I always get "who" and "whom" mixed up), and that may come into play here.

Glad you didn't get hurt, Tyler. Come back to the discussion!

I've been belayed off of one bolt, twice, by two different people. One was a Gumby, the other had more time in than me. He had a sorry excuse, but I corrected both partners calmly, and convinced myself that I'm such a badass, not falling definitely helped me on those pitches. I hitched a ride with a party I didn't know up a classic 3 pitch 5.6. At the top of the 2nd pitch, I looked at the dudes Reverso, which was clipped through the wire and rope, and casually told the dude that that wasn't guide mode. He was immediately struck with regret. I just chuckled. It was 5.6.......c'mon. I was considering soloing the route if I couldn't get a belay. 

Pull on the rope before you start your 5.6 pitch. You're responsible for your movement and safety over rock. Gear can fail, too, even when used properly. We're using metal and plastic. It doesn't care about us. But it's engineered by the best in the business. So risk with reward from doing this awesome shit goes hand in hand. That's why we're awesome. Some of us accept a LOT of risk, and hope for the best. We sometimes find ourselves wondering why we continue when we're hurting and scared. It's type 2 fun in the moment, but makes for good memories after the hurt. Now, go solo that shit. 

After-thought:  during a lesson, it's important to explain the purpose of things, versus showing and saying do this because that's just the way it is. I.e. The Reverso must hang sideways from that metal eyelet, so when the follower's strand, when routed over the top of the other strand that makes the pile of rope, puts body weight in between the two strands that are moving in opposite directions. The rope CAN'T move, because of all the friction. Not hitting home? Belay off the harness. I do sometimes, if i have a strong feeling that my follower will have a hard time on the pitch,  so I can help them up. 

Paul Hutton wrote:

I've been belayed off of one bolt, twice, by two different people. One was af Gumby, the other had more time in than me. He had a sorry excuse, but I corrected both partners calmly, and convinced myself that I'm such a badass, not falling definitely helped me on those pitches. 

Plenty of scenarios where this is fine:

• If you're talking about the belay device attached to the single bolt, if the leader built an anchor that incorporated more pieces, that bolt was backed up by the anchor.
• If the climber is at a solid stance (ledge, or wedged into a corner) and redirecting the rope through the single bolt that they're anchored to.
• Multipitch on easy terrain with a single bolt anchor but difficult to find additional gear and you need to move quickly.
• Single bolt backed up by additional gear.

My advice is to not try speedclimbing bigwalls anytime soon if this sort of thing is a nonstarter for you

BrokenChairs wrote:

Wait, wait, wait. I can't believe no one else has caught this... but, you have a via ferrata lanyard? I have one too! Is there a secret via ferrata in Washington state that I don't know about?

aikibujin wrote:

Wait, wait, wait. I can't believe no one else has caught this... but, you have a via ferrata lanyard? I have one too! Is there a secret via ferrata in Washington state that I don't know about?

Really I can't believe no one brought up that apple auto correct thinks I meant binders when I typed biners on my phone last night.  Oh Apple. 

No just part of the collection.  I got a great deal on the lanyard from work and would like to get out to Europe to do some via ferrata one of these days. 

BrokenChairs wrote:

No just part of the collection.  I got a great deal on the lanyard from work and would like to get out to Europe to do some via ferrata one of these days. 

If you don't get out to Europe soon you can always come to Colorado and do the one here (not as nice as Europe though).

http://www.telluridemountainclub.org/via-ferrata/

GTS wrote:

I'm calling bs. You don't make a thread like this and then "forget all about it". 

Forget may be the wrong term, sidetracked more like it. Anyways I've been following off and on since I got an email at 12pm MST saying I had 27 replies!

I appreciate everyone's responses btw. Yes I admit sometimes I get lazy as a climber once I've climbed with someone for a while and assume they are remembering everything they've been taught. This is a good reminder that we always need to be diligent as climbers, no matter how many times we have climbed with someone or how experienced we or they may be. Mistakes can and do happen, we should correct each other and move on. And check each other as often and as thoroughly as is feasible.