Choosing a belay device

BrokenChairs wrote:

I'm surprised you haven't tried the Sterling ATS.  (It's my go to for canyons especially if there is running water) My friends all swear by the pirana but I find the ATS way more versitial.  If you want to try it shoot me a PM and I'll kick it your way to try for a few weeks.  

I feel you on the work thing the count down to the crag started at 8 this morning..... Sad that a thread on belay devices is helping get me through a Friday. 

Never really liked figure 8 style descenders after working with the 8 and the Pirana which is why I don't have experience with the other variants on the design. I probably should get back into it considering the amount of descending that I do (siege climbing FAs on weekends) 

To the OP: there are many devices. The best advice I ever saw was that you want to learn the benefits *but also the limitations* of whatever you pick, and that your partners know the same for their devices (not sure if it was rgold, jhealy, or bearbreeder who made that point best, but when they all agree, I'm going to listen).

Ashima got decked on a gri, does that make it bad? Heck no, it's a great piece of gear. I prefer megajul as my daily driver whether gym, crag, single, or multi. However, I also have an ATC for rapping because megajuls suck at that, and they really aren't fun with ropes over 9.4.

Ken Noyce wrote:

Another drawback is the fact that it uses the same mechanism as the cinch.

Nick Drake wrote:

Adding to Ken's point, my gripe with the cinch/vergo design (covered well in other threads) is that it creates no bend in the rope. If the pin is worn and it doesn't lock you're getting no assistance.

It actually doesn't in my understanding and usage of the device (which is why they say they renamed it - whether that's to be believed or if it's due to the issues attached to people's perception of the name is alway up for debate) 

The connection and movement between the plates/clamshells/whatever you want to call it are different between each device. The Vergo has the added addition of the expectation (via text printed on the device itself) of loading it in what feels like an upside down orientation as well as specific molded placements of the thumb and forefinger when holding the device itself. The pin issue is still something that will take time to see if it expresses itself in the vergo as it did with the cinch. 

Ken Noyce wrote:

I feel the same way:(

How many pages do you think this thing will get to before it's finally time to go use our Gri Gri's?

BrokenChairs wrote:

How many pages do you think this thing will get to before it's finally time to go use our Gri Gri's?

I don't know, I've got another half hour before I can go use mine!

Ken Noyce wrote:

I don't know, I've got another half hour before I can go use mine!

Lucky I've got two hours. 

Kevin DeWeese 1 wrote:

It actually doesn't in my understanding and usage of the device (which is why they say they renamed it - whether that's to be believed or if it's due to the issues attached to people's perception of the name is alway up for debate) 

The connection and movement between the plates/clamshells/whatever you want to call it are different between each device. The Vergo has the added addition of the expectation (via text printed on the device itself) of loading it in what feels like an upside down orientation as well as specific molded placements of the thumb and forefinger when holding the device itself. The pin issue is still something that will take time to see if it expresses itself in the vergo as it did with the cinch. 

Wasn't that the "modified" way the later instructed people to use the cinch? It seemed like the operation of the vergo was the same to me. I had thought about trying one out, before they all got recalled. 

Ken Noyce wrote:

Another drawback is the fact that it uses the same mechanism as the cinch which is known to have mysteriously dropped multiple people by belayers who were very experienced with the device and had no idea what happened other than that the climber was dropped, and are unable to recreate the scenario that led to the climber being dropped.  Sorry, but I won't be belayed by this device regardless of how easy it is to feed.

I am aware of those mysterious incidents with the Cinch  and they are not to be taken lightly, although I don't know all of the details.  The Vergo operates nearly exactly like the Cinch, with only a few minor modifications, and to be honest that does make me a little nervous about using the Vergo.  Those mysterious incidents are the reason I said that proper technique and an attentitive belay are very important when using a Vergo.

However, I am willing to give the Vergo a chance.  It is my personal belief that the risk of a mysterious failure can be mitigated by feeding the rope to the side (as opposed to toward the climber) as recommended by Trango, and by pulling the device away from the belay loop (essentially forcing it to lock) when not actively feeding slack.

Someone else asked if it was approved for top rope soloing.  Heck no it isn't "approved", but neither is a GriGri, and that hasn't stopped loads of climbers from hacking off a metal tab and using it anyway.  For that matter, is any device actually "approved" for such use?  The Petzl mini/micro traxion are probably the most popular devices for TR solo, but Petzl clearly states on their website that they "don't recommend top rope soloing" and that "Petzl has not developed a device for this activity, but certain ascenders may be used for it by experts" (on the other hand, they also explain step by step how to TR solo).  Bottom line... Use a good backup system.

Kevin DeWeese 1 wrote:

Incorrect. The first recall was for an issue that if it occurred would effectively prevent the device from working and would cause a falling climber to be dropped. 

• "The handle on the Vergo belay device can loosen and cause the device’s assisted braking capacity to malfunction, posing fall and injury hazards to climbers." - http://trango.com/images/Vergo-Recall-Notice-CPSC-Official.pdf

Agreed though that the second recall is a non-issue IMO (I still use mine that was sent to me after the first recall) 

This makes no sense at all. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that on the first recall, the only way it would malfunction is if you managed to force the handle past the stop which isn't exactly easy to do, and that if you just pulled it back into the proper position it would function normally again.

As for the second paragraph not making sense...  Yea, you are right, that was pretty bad writing on my part.  What I mean is that all belay devices require the bealyer to RTFM and to have good technique and be attentive, but some devices are more sensitive to user error than others.  This is just conjecture, but I think that the Cinch was more sensitive to user error and poor technique than some other devices, and the Vergo probably is too.

Nick Drake wrote:

Wasn't that the "modified" way the later instructed people to use the cinch? It seemed like the operation of the vergo was the same to me. I had thought about trying one out, before they all got recalled. 

No, the cinch and the vergo have a different method of the parts rotating around each other. The modified method of dealing with the cinch was a different process because you couldn't touch the clamshell without defeating the device whereas the vergo expressly tells you to hold the device with the molded placements for your fingers allowing the clamshell to rotate freely

cyclestupor wrote:

1. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that on the first recall, the only way it would malfunction is if you managed to force the handle past the stop which isn't exactly easy to do, and that if you just pulled it back into the proper position it would function normally again.
2. As for the second paragraph not making sense...  Yea, you are right, that was pretty bad writing on my part.  What I mean is that all belay devices require the bealyer to RTFM and to have good technique and be attentive, but some devices are more sensitive to user error than others.  This is just conjecture, but I think that the Cinch was more sensitive to user error and poor technique than some other devices, and the Vergo probably is too.

1. I'm assuming you're correct in pulling the handle back, the problem would be that a fall in that failure mode wouldn't give you the time to pull it back before the climber decks. Thus, not a minor inconvenience (unless you're not a fan of your leader).

2. The cinch was certainly more sensitive to user error but the refinements in the vergo "fix" those issues so that it doesn't suffer any greater response to user error than other belay devices. The "probably" in your statement is related to the perception that they are the exact same device with different names, but the difference in the way the part rotate around each other is what makes them "different" devices with different advantages/issues. Hell, I was a huge fan of the cinch's ability to allow you to manually move the clamshell with your non-belaying hand into the locked position by slotting your finger into the grooves on the clamshell. Not the official method of use, but effective nonetheless. 

cyclestupor wrote:

Someone else asked if it was approved for top rope soloing.  Heck no it isn't "approved", but neither is a GriGri, and that hasn't stopped loads of climbers from hacking off a metal tab and using it anyway.  For that matter, is any device actually "approved" for such use?  The Petzl mini/micro traxion are probably the most popular devices for TR solo, but Petzl clearly states on their website that they "don't recommend top rope soloing" and that "Petzl has not developed a device for this activity, but certain ascenders may be used for it by experts" (on the other hand, they also explain step by step how to TR solo).  Bottom line... Use a good backup system.

There's a pretty big difference between Petzl's statements on using the micro traxion for TR solo and their statements on using the GriGri for TR solo. There's also a pretty big difference between how you would use the devices (if I'm not mistaken, you'd have to pull through the slack with the GriGri--you don't for the micro traxion).

Just get DMM Pivot or any other tube/ATC style device, learn how to use it properly AND your belayer with some guidance from experienced climbers,

then when you start to get ideas above last bolt that your partner is not paying attention, get GriGri+ or any other semi-auto locking device. 

acrophobe wrote:

Having and using both, do you confirm that the Click Up handles single thicker ropes better than the Alpine Up?

Jef Anstey wrote:

Seriously buy a mega Jul.

The Mega Jul is quite literally the single worst belay device on the market. I am going to assume with a very high degree of confidence you have not tried using it to conduct a double rope rap otherwise your opinion would differ significantly. Go try rappelling ten pitches on two 10mm strands and then come back and tell us your opinion of it.

20 kN wrote:

The Mega Jul is quite literally the single worst belay device on the market. I am going to assume with a very high degree of confidence you have not tried using it to conduct a double rope rap otherwise your opinion would differ significantly. Go try rappelling ten pitches on two 10mm strands and then come back and tell us your opinion 

did you not try it on "unlcoked mode"?

I haven't rappeled on one no...but I've belayed and used the device, I use the Jul 2 currently

maybe you're right
I'm gonna try to check this out and I'll adjust my future recommendations if so

Re Alpine Up and fat ropes, my friend who had been using one for quite some time says it works well for him on everything up to about 10, which he considers "morbidly obese", lol!

Test out what you are interested in. The people you borrow them from will have plenty to say, if they've had them awhile. Use different ropes, if you can, and you should get a good idea what's a good fit for you, your hands, your uses, etc

Then practice!

Best, OLH

I dont like the feel of ropes. What is a good alternative? I am looking for something silky smooth and weighs less than 8 ounces. 

Real silk. But ya gotta wear a Cirque d'soleil type costume, or it won't work.

Pics, please. :-)

H.