Grigri Belay Technique

Tim Lutz wrote:

so which is Chris Sharma, an old man or a newb?!

He has a baby now, he doesn't even climb anymore. 

Has anyone heard of a Grigri belay accident where the belayer was even purporting to use the new style?

It seems fairly idiot proof to me, but I imagine someone can figure out a way to drop even with the new style (maybe grabbing hard on the climber side of the rope to defeat the cam, but still allowing the rope to slide somewhat, although that wouldn't be a free fall drop at least).

If the belayer said he was even close to properly using new style and somehow the climber got dropped, I'm not sure what I'd think, but so far I haven't heard of such a claim being made.

Healyje wrote:

And I'd say the same thing about belayers with grigris - beyond the base capabilities of the device itself competence is random at best. And even if you can reliably judge competence with the device who really feels comfortable with a bell curve of competence when it comes to belaying? That is a good thing about hip belaying - it is pretty binary, you're either competent with it or you don't do it and there never was much in the way of a bell curve of competence around it that you see with grigris.

climbing friend,

lol. you do not utilize the hip belay and know it is ritard in the face of modern gear, you just very much like slap and flick others' wangs through tubes of internet, yes?

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

lol. you do not utilize the hip belay and know it is ritard in the face of modern gear, you just very much like slap and flick others' wangs through tubes of internet, yes?

Actually, I still use it quite often - nothing about 'modern gear' is in anyway safer - especially not 'modern' climbers. The prevailing perception to the contrary is would actually be hilarious if it weren't such a frightening telltale.

climbing friend, 

unfortunately, you are wrong. even though there are countless idiot everywhere managing still to drop the peoplez and they should be punished and educated or perhaps never allowed to climb again, I could probably be knocked unconscious, attacked by the bald eagle, have a heart attack, and still have decent chance for the catch of your considerable downward rushing mass by the grace of the holy grigri our savior

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend, 

unfortunately, you are wrong. ...

 I could probably be knocked unconscious, attacked by the bald eagle, have a heart attack, and still have decent chance for the catch of your considerable downward rushing mass by the grace of the holy grigri our savior

One can only guess at the ratio of the number of people saved from unconscious belayers vs dropped by conscious grigri users. And, hell, that's without even getting into all the semi-conscious grigri users. Your odds of getting hit by lightning or bitten by a great white are way better even if it's hard to imagine any great white daring to sample your neck meat.

climbing friend,

I must use the grigri in case of great white attack

Do most gyms require a separate certification for a hip belay, or is that part of the lead test?

jleining wrote:

That's comparing apples to oranges. The improvement in ropes is quantifiable and not debated. comparing different methods of belaying and ranking them as far as safety is not quantifiable. This all boils down to the new generation of "climbers" taking the sport out of climbing and trying to make it as safe as bowling. Yawn

Fortunately for me, I don't need everything to be "quantifiable" in order to see one method is an improvement to another. And no, I was using an apple to apple comparison. Dulfersitz to rappelling is hip belay to belaying. At some point in climbing history, they were the standard method for rappelling and belaying, respectively. But it doesn't need to be "quantifiable" for people to see that rappelling with any belay device, or even a munter hitch, is an improvement on using the Dulfersitz. I guess the big difference is that unlike the hip belay, no one on MP claims that they can Dulfersitz better than rappelling with a belay device.

aikibujin wrote:

Fortunately for me, I don't need everything to be "quantifiable" in order to see one method is an improvement to another. And no, I was using an apple to apple comparison. Dulfersitz to rappelling is hip belay to belaying. At some point in climbing history, they were the standard method for rappelling and belaying, respectively. But it doesn't need to be "quantifiable" for people to see that rappelling with any belay device, or even a munter hitch, is an improvement on using the Dulfersitz. I guess the big difference is that unlike the hip belay, no one on MP claims that they can Dulfersitz better than rappelling with a belay device.

The Dulfersitz thing isn't really comparable; it essentially doesn't work unless you're dressed for the part and doing slabbish rappels - on vertical or overhanging, heinous. We all gave that one go and it was instantly off the table. 

Hip belaying on the other hand, is completely functional and solid. Over the span of years I've held tons of falls, lots of long falls, and a couple of FF2 falls on a hip belay with no issues whatsoever. It's really not a matter of the method if you're doing it right just as it's not a matter of the device method if you're doing it right .

Neither is a safer or more effective way of belaying than the other. The real bottom line is that with either a hip belay or a device, it isn't about the method, it's about the competence and attention of the person using it to belay. Competence and attention - without both it doesn't matter if you're using hip belaying or using a grigri2000Z+.

Has anyone heard of a Grigri belay accident where the belayer was even purporting to use the old style?

I've been using the "new" method on a grigri 1 since just before that old video came out.  However, I don't necessarily believe it's safer in practice.  I suspect that people using the "new" technique are more prone to holding down the cam indefinitely.  I've seen new belayers doing this.  It seems entirely possible that the greater danger comes not from letting go of the brake strand, but from defeating the cam.  In other words, I'm not sure what's worse with a grigri: a hands-free belay, or fist-clenched-on-the-cam belay.  

I wonder how many "he fell clipping the third bolt and decked" incidents would be avoided if everyone belayed with the old grigri method (or even utilized the deadly ATC).  I have no data to support this, and perhaps I am projecting too much of my incompetence with the grigri on other climbers, but I suspect people leave out more slack with a gri-gri than with an ATC because they're afraid they won't be able to pay it out quickly.  Certainly most inappropriately large arcs of slack I see are with grigri users, but that could be demographics or the fact that I mostly encounter grigri users at the gym.  While obviously a few feet of extra slack out isn't as bad as not controlling the break strand, it's a danger that is present most of the time with a lot of users, and can lead to serious injuries.

Kedron Silsbee wrote:

I wonder how many "he fell clipping the third bolt and decked" incidents would be avoided if everyone belayed with the old grigri method (or even utilized the deadly ATC).  I have no data to support this, and perhaps I am projecting too much of my incompetence with the grigri on other climbers, but I suspect people leave out more slack with a gri-gri than with an ATC because they're afraid they won't be able to pay it out quickly.  Certainly most inappropriately large arcs of slack I see are with grigri users, but that could be demographics or the fact that I mostly encounter grigri users at the gym.  While obviously a few feet of extra slack out isn't as bad as not controlling the break strand, it's a danger that is present most of the time with a lot of users, and can lead to serious injuries.

This is a training issue. If people bothered to learn how to be effective belayers and feed slack quickly, they wouldn't leave large loops of slack. There's really no excuse.

JaredG wrote:

Has anyone heard of a Grigri belay accident where the belayer was even purporting to use the old style?

I've been using the "new" method on a grigri 1 since just before that old video came out.  However, I don't necessarily believe it's safer in practice.  I suspect that people using the "new" technique are more prone to holding down the cam indefinitely.  I've seen new belayers doing this.  It seems entirely possible that the greater danger comes not from letting go of the brake strand, but from defeating the cam.  In other words, I'm not sure what's worse with a grigri: a hands-free belay, or fist-clenched-on-the-cam belay.  

I agree with John Wilder's comment that holding the cam down with the new technique is not an issue.

What I frequently see at the gym is very experienced climbers using the new technique quick-feed method basically all the time, not just when the climber is clipping.  At first, I thought this was dangerous and a mistake, but I've since come around. It seems not only safe, but essentially foolproof.  A falling climber will activate the cam even if the belayer is thumb pressing the cam to feed rope. 

As to which is worse with a grigri, a hands-free belay, or a fist-clenched-on-the-cam belay:  that is easy to answer.  One has caused many accidents, the other has caused essentially zero.  Bearbreeder would try to come up with scenarios that may or may not have happened where a hands-free grigri belay led to problems, but it's debatable whether a hands-free grigri belay has ever resulted in a dropped climber.  To my knowledge, it has never resulted in a dropped climber at a gym or on a "standard" (steep) sport climb.  The Bearbreeder scenario was always someone slowly slidling down a slab which may not have generated enough force to activate the cam or another slow fall situation. 

In other words, Grigri failures are always caused by people defeating the cam, not by the cam failing to activate by the force of the fall.  (People may quibble with "always.")

I'm just noting this to further a discussion of how Grigris work and, more importantly, don't work.  I do not belay hands-free with a grigri (I use the new technique) or think anyone else should.

Jon H wrote:

This is a training issue. If people bothered to learn how to be effective belayers and feed slack quickly, they wouldn't leave large loops of slack. There's really no excuse.

I agree in principle, but at the risk of channeling healyje, if people bothered to learn how to be effective belayers, there'd be a lot fewer threads like this.  I'm not advocating for the old style, but I am curious if advocating for grigris vs. ATCs has lowered the accident rate, when accidents due to excess slack are taken into account.

Healyje wrote:

One can only guess at the ratio of the number of people saved from unconscious belayers vs dropped by conscious grigri users. And, hell, that's without even getting into all the semi-conscious grigri users. Your odds of getting hit by lightning or bitten by a great white are way better even if it's hard to imagine any great white daring to sample your neck meat.

I am alive thanks to a gri gri after myself and my belayer were struck by a falling object. I doubt I'm the only one. 

Healyje wrote:

Absolutely as safe as belaying with any device.

Seriously though, you're being loaded with bad faith on issues like this one.

You're more or less taking all the good hip-belayers, and using that to say hip-belay is as good and/or safer than the gri-gri, for which you use the whole community of belayers. You're not comparing belay systems, you're cherry-picking populations and then using that to say "hey, look, my way is way better those guys are clueless".

At the end of the day, the thing is that one belay system is auto-blocking under normal operation by a properly training belayer. That's called a gri-gri. Another belay system is NOT auto-blocking under the same circumstances. If you're not willing to compare systems based on normal circumstances & proper use, there's just not point in discussing.

To argue that a hip-belay is inherently safer than a gri-gri is laughable. To argue that a given hip-belayer is safer than a given gri-gri belayer is perfectly reasonable, but then that's not a gear question, it's a choose your belayer question.

Let's frame that another way, just for fun, in a thought experiment. Let's say you were going to be belayed by a person at random on MP (e.g. a randomly selected climber), and you get to choose whatever belay system/technic that person is going to use for a climb that is challenging for your skills. You still stick with the "hip belay is safer anyways" or you might want to reconsider?

Kedron Silsbee wrote:

I wonder how many "he fell clipping the third bolt and decked" incidents would be avoided if everyone belayed with the old grigri method (or even utilized the deadly ATC).  I have no data to support this, and perhaps I am projecting too much of my incompetence with the grigri on other climbers, but I suspect people leave out more slack with a gri-gri than with an ATC because they're afraid they won't be able to pay it out quickly.  Certainly most inappropriately large arcs of slack I see are with grigri users, but that could be demographics or the fact that I mostly encounter grigri users at the gym.  While obviously a few feet of extra slack out isn't as bad as not controlling the break strand, it's a danger that is present most of the time with a lot of users, and can lead to serious injuries.

I climb about 50/50 Grigri/ATC.  It is significantly easier to quickly pay out slack with a Grigri.  What you are observing is:

1) Ignorance/inexperience.  They don't know what they are doing is wrong/unnecessary or they don't know how to properly belay.  Many people think that leaving more slack out results in a softer catch.

2) Machismo/broiness.  GriGris correlate with sport climbing which correlates with bro culture.  Have talked with several people who are really into giving "penalty slack" when their climber yells "take."  Would not climb with any of them.

John Wilder wrote:

What are you talking about? He's doing nothing of the sort. It's true that any belay device (or method when talking about a hip belay) is as safe as any other device when used correctly. 

At no point did he say it was safer than anything. Users define safety, and I would guess that like me, Joe is not going to let anyone at random belay him. 

Well, "absolutely as safe as any belay device", what does that mean then?

Or that:

Neither is a safer or more effective way of belaying than the other. The real bottom line is that with either a hip belay or a device, it isn't about the method, it's about the competence and attention of the person using it to belay. Competence and attention - without both it doesn't matter if you're using hip belaying or using a grigri2000Z+.

And not  it is not true that "any belay device is as safe as any other when used correctly".

You can use an ATC, or a hip-belay correctly, and still drop someone. You could be slammed into the wall. Someone could bump into and make you let go of the brake strand at the wrong time. You could be hit by a piece of gear/rock or whatever and again unwillingly let go of the brake strand. You could faint for any reason - I had someone have what was likely hypoglycemia (not enough blood sugar, too much exercise/not enough food intake) on me once. Glad she used a gri-gri not an ATC or a hip belay. Or your climbing could fall at 2nd/3rd clip and slam into you, again causing you to let go of the brake strand. It may not mean much if the landing is clean. It could be dangerous if not.

Sorry but to argue that a device with an objectively safer feature (auto-blocking) is not any safer than a device lacking that feature just doesn't make sense.

JaredG wrote:

Has anyone heard of a Grigri belay accident where the belayer was even purporting to use the old style?

Yes. Ashima Shiraishi. 

"Though well versed with a belay device, Hisatoshi Shiraishi succumbed to an all-too-common user error. According to Retseck, he accidently clasped down on the Grigri 2’s brake release lever that he was using to belay Ashima, which caused her to drop 45-feet to the padded floor." rockandice.com/climbing-new…