Light climber, heavier partner

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

if you are meeting your new partner for first time dating, how may you be telling if they are quite interested in you, and whether you shall ask them to meet again? Sometimes it is quite confusing, yes? Shall there be "signals" you would "read?"

And what may you do at the end of this time together? shall you say you had a good time? Or simply you are running off into the forest as quickly as possible?

Climbing friend Aleks, 

Sadly, in my overwhelming experience of late, there is not a satisfactory answer.

You must build the mental game, myah? Be prepared to try again and again, in search of the satisfaction of the bold pursuit of partner, yes, even in defeat and heartbreak. 

Or. Rope solo.

Best, H.

All, would be interested to know what your experience is with various belay devices in the light/heavy scenario. Information for various assisted brake devices, in particular, or, at least, grigri type and carabineer lock type.

What I am particularly interested in, is the minimum weight required to trigger an assisted brake device. I have an Alpine Up, and some other devices to play with too, but not a really light climber to help! Will a 70 pound kid just letting go on a top rope be enough weight, for example? Keep kids on an ATC belay?

Other ideas or considerations for light climbers? 

Thanks! Helen

John Wilder wrote:

There is no minimum weight for any assisted braking device, so far as I know. What triggers them is rope speed- a slow enough fall on any device and it won't trigger (a really small kid on a top rope with a bar and an extra wrap may have enough friction that you'd need to feed rope through an ATC manually to even lower).

This is irrelevant, though, as a brake hand on the rope on any device (grigri, cinch, etc) will guarantee the device engages- and you should never take your brake hand off the rope when belaying, as you well know.

Thanks, sir, I'll get a climber to sneak off as part of the practice sessions! See where the threshold is. I've got the Alpine Up, so it's an ATC style belay anyway.

I was just thinking that, at some low weight, even a good size fall might not trigger?? One of my favorite partners was under 100 pounds. If she had not returned to her home country, I'm sure she'd be leading by now. I still miss her. 

And, thinking of kids on the rope, also.

I'm thinking, i might be able to tie a foot loop in the climber side of the rope, and stomp it down to practice the belay side with the Up, by myself. Dunno.

I also want to experiment with different ropes, especially skinny slick ones. My first rope purchase is coming up soon ish. :-D

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

Thanks, sir, I'll get a climber to sneak off as part of the practice sessions! See where the threshold is. I've got the Alpine Up, so it's an ATC style belay anyway.

I was just thinking that, at some low weight, even a good size fall might not trigger?? One of my favorite partners was under 100 pounds. If she had not returned to her home country, I'm sure she'd be leading by now. I still miss her. 

And, thinking of kids on the rope, also.

I'm thinking, i might be able to tie a foot loop in the climber side of the rope, and stomp it down to practice the belay side with the Up, by myself. Dunno.

I also want to experiment with different ropes, especially skinny slick ones. My first rope purchase is coming up soon ish. :-D

Best, Helen

Less posting about thinking, more climbing, is what Dr. Frank orders.

John Wilder wrote:

There is no minimum weight for any assisted braking device, so far as I know. What triggers them is rope speed- a slow enough fall on any device and it won't trigger (a really small kid on a top rope with a bar and an extra wrap may have enough friction that you'd need to feed rope through an ATC manually to even lower).

This is irrelevant, though, as a brake hand on the rope on any device (grigri, cinch, etc) will guarantee the device engages- and you should never take your brake hand off the rope when belaying, as you well know.

John, remember the thread rgold (?) had, where someone experimented and couldn't get a grigri to not engage, so long as there was any brake at all, even with the other hand on the climbers side? 

That came up in a discussion recently, about the hand above possibly defeating the device. I haven't found that discussion to forward, but it reinforced keeping the brake hand on.

Pretty capable people on that one, I'd like to find it again, if someone remembers that.

Thanks! Helen

Old lady H wrote:

John, remember the thread rgold (?) had, where someone experimented and couldn't get a grigri to not engage, so long as there was any brake at all, even with the other hand on the climbers side? 

If there is a lot of rope drag and with a light climber, a fall may not cause the rope move fast enough initially thru the Gri Gri to make it lock.  Until the climber is falling at some 'reasonable' speed, that it.  I have seen this happen in the gym. Nobody came close to decking though.  Of course, if the belayer had applied even a little pressure on the Gri Gri to hold the cam down, the result can be quite dramatic with a longer fall.  That is why, like John wrote, always have your belay hand 'on', even when using a Gri Gri.  

climbing friend,

do not, under any imaginable circumstance, utilize deadly atc

S. Neoh wrote:

If there is a lot of rope drag and with a light climber, a fall may not cause the rope move fast enough initially thru the Gri Gri to make it lock.  Until the climber is falling at some 'reasonable' speed, that it.  I have seen this happen in the gym. Nobody came close to decking though.  Of course, if the belayer had applied even a little pressure on the Gri Gri to hold the cam down, the result can be quite dramatic with a longer fall.  That is why, like John wrote, always have your belay hand 'on', even when using a Gri Gri.  

Yeah, that's why I was thinking of that discussion. 

Aleks, you remember??? Was it your deadly ATC thread?

I should also mention that a fuzzy and dirty rope also adds friction to the system and may make the Gri Gri a little slower to engage if there is already friction in the system.  

Something along this line happened to me while I was setting and working the moves on a route, self belaying on TR with the Gri Gri clipped to me and the other end of the well-used rope attached to a floor anchor.  At one point below the designed crux, I took up all the slack and then made two or three moves.  There I paused, probably mid-crux, and proceeded to slip off, slowly.  Much to my surprise, I could hear the rope running thru my Gri Gri unimpeded for a while longer than I had thought possible.  It finally cammed and I came to a stop about twice the distance lower than I had expected.  No harm, more of  a surprise.  So, since then, I tie 'stopper' knots in the "belayer" end of the rope when I self belay while setting.

John Wilder wrote:

There is no minimum weight for any assisted braking device, so far as I know. What triggers them is rope speed- a slow enough fall on any device and it won't trigger (a really small kid on a top rope with a bar and an extra wrap may have enough friction that you'd need to feed rope through an ATC manually to even lower).

This is irrelevant, though, as a brake hand on the rope on any device (grigri, cinch, etc) will guarantee the device engages- and you should never take your brake hand off the rope when belaying, as you well know.

+1.

The only time I managed to get the rope to slide through the device without locking (in a tag test, with no hand on the break-- obviously not with the climber on the climb!) was when I used a new super skinny 9.1 in an old worn out first generation gri-gri... Less relevant now, but before Gri-gri2 came out, there was a period where ropes have gotten skinnier, and the belay devices didn't catch up. Obviously, make sure that your device is suitable for the rope you are using, regardless of the weight of the climber.

Lena chita wrote:

+1.

The only time I managed to get the rope to slide through the device without locking (in a tag test, with no hand on the break-- obviously not with the climber on the climb!) was when I used a new super skinny 9.1 in an old worn out first generation gri-gri... Less relevant now, but before Gri-gri2 came out, there was a period where ropes have gotten skinnier, and the belay devices didn't catch up. Obviously, make sure that your device is suitable for the rope you are using, regardless of the weight of the climber.

Thanks, Lena! My first rope purchase is ahead, and that will be a big consideration.

The rope I have now (a gift) is quite fat, and is not great in click up mode with the Alpine Up. However, the Up can also be used in dynamic mode, which simply means exactly as an ATC. 

This is just what I was working on last night, with a rope over the garage rafters!

In dynamic mode, it worked great, which means this can go on the gym ropes also.

@Jake, it isn't your business or responsibility, but do you ever offer to show those folks what you are doing? I knew about soft catches long before I was belaying leads, but it wouldn't occur to me that you were doing that on purpose, if I didn't have that knowledge. Another one of those simple things that is obvious, but not until you know that! 

Best, Helen

One sure way to get slammed into the wall is to yell take when you are above your last draw.  This is especially true on overhanging walls.  I've seen this in the gym many times.  You hear that loud boom when their feet slam into the wall.  Ouch.  

Regarding the OP, I outweigh my partners by 50 to 90 lbs regularly.  Timing a jump is not alway practical since the leader can be out of sight on many routes and the pain in the neck can be unbearable.  There are some simple techniques and factors that can help with the soft catch.  Being soft in hips/waist area is a simple technique.  Just give with your hips when catching a fall.  Standing slightly away from the wall (provided the first piece is super solid and can take an outward pull) can also reduce the impact.  Just based on the physics, it is easier to get pulled horizontally into the wall versus vertically up.  Using low impact force, slick ropes and the deadly atc can assist to keep the impact low.  Stiff, dry ropes can add to the impact by reducing the effective amount of rope between climber and belayer due to friction through protection pieces and rubbing on the rock.  The deadly gri gri definitely adds impact to the leader and protection pieces, by about 15 or 20 %.  Bear has lots of charts on this.

Keep in mind that this weight difference thingy becomes less relevant with distance between climber and belayer since we use dynamic ropes.  Many outdoor routes have pitches that are 90 to 140 feet long, or more.  I'd say beyond 60 or 70 feet, which is more than you will see in most gyms, there is enough rope to keep the catch "soft".

Of course, it depends and YMMV.  

Lena chita wrote:

+1.

The only time I managed to get the rope to slide through the device without locking (in a tag test, with no hand on the break-- obviously not with the climber on the climb!) was when I used a new super skinny 9.1 in an old worn out first generation gri-gri... Less relevant now, but before Gri-gri2 came out, there was a period where ropes have gotten skinnier, and the belay devices didn't catch up. Obviously, make sure that your device is suitable for the rope you are using, regardless of the weight of the climber.

<drift> 

I almost dropped someone, just a bit heavier than I am, the last six feet to the ground while lowering him using my Gri Gri 1 and his brand new Sterling 9.8!  Using GG 2 now.

</drift>

S. Neoh wrote:

 

I almost dropped someone, just a bit heavier than I am, the last six feet to the ground while lowering him using my Gri Gri 1 and his brand new Sterling 9.8!  Using GG 2 now.

Two carabineers, on an ATC, helped when we had a super slick skinny rope at the crag one day (group of four, three ropes up, we all got a ton of climbing in). I have no idea at all if you can add friction to an assisted brake device, if you had to.

Best, H.

S. Neoh wrote:

 

I almost dropped someone, just a bit heavier than I am, the last six feet to the ground while lowering him using my Gri Gri 1 and his brand new Sterling 9.8!  Using GG 2 now.

Re drift

It sounds like you need the deadly gri gri 3 with the panic mode feature.

End drift

Greg D wrote:

Re drift

It sounds like you need the deadly gri gri 3 with the panic mode feature.

End drift

Sounds like it!  Hilarious :)

Seriously, I actually feel like I am more on top my game when I lead belay someone lighter or around my weight with the deadly ATC.  Nothing wrong with an ATC if you are comfortable with its mission and you have no chance of being knocked out cold while belaying (don't laugh, I know someone who received life threatening head injury while belaying).  I lead belay exclusively with the GG when in the gym (where there are plenty f distractions and climbers hangdogging).  For outdoors 1-pitch cragging, I mostly use the GG.  For MP,  I almost always use the ATC, unless hangdog is expected.  Besides it can be used as a rap device!  How cool is that :)

Old lady H wrote:

Yeah, that's why I was thinking of that discussion. 

Aleks, you remember??? Was it your deadly ATC thread?

climbing friend,

what is it you are remembering?

the first rule of the atc, is do not utilize the deadly atc