Rock climber dies from fall in Big Cottonwood Canyon

Stagg54 Taggart wrote:

 You get to the top, ask for slack, do your thing, and then tell them to lower you.

How is that any different than any other technique (including untying) to get lowered?

@Stagg - Since you asked, I rap because I prefer. I don't mistrust my belayer. I have had only one belayer on everything from single pitch sport to multipitch alpine for years now.

There are multiple ways to descent and if done safely everything is correct (as Kyle said). I always feel - follow one method and do it perfectly rather than trying to futz around with different techniques. For me it's rappelling.

Anyway, in the essence of keeping it to the point - the point is to best put forth a technique/process for single pitch cragging and cleaning of bolted routes so that people don't die. And in that regards, I think lowering off without untying is the safest method as it minimizes chances of error.

There is no reason too ever call off belay

Lowering or rappelling

Further more

When I'm with my best partners we don't communicat at all 

Hate yelling

Radios?

Multi pitch you ask?

When the rope and knot on my waist collide with the belay device you climb

And yes you very well may be simul climbing 

This can be dangerous 

So the rule is " don't fall " while seconding ie: aid climb( French free) if you must

Skye your correct

Not too mention the OP is about an accident 

Fatality no less

Thanks for posting everyone

We are just hoping too educate too prevent loss of life

Condolences too all involved

I'm am sorry for your loss

I'm done here

Peace 

jason.cre wrote:

How is that any different than any other technique (including untying) to get lowered?

not any different than untying and rethreading or any other lowering technique, except that you are always connected to the rope.  No potential to drop it.  Never relying solely on your PAs/POS or whatever else you use to clip in with.  In fact if I am on a big ledge, I often don't clip in at all.  Just thread the rope through.  Tie an alpine butterfly and you are ready to go.   It can be very quick.  Much quicker than rappelling.

 Less things to screw up.

alpinist 47 wrote:

There is no reason too ever call off belay

Lowering or rappelling

That must suck to pull up the rope if you are rapelling...   

Rohan R Rao wrote:

@Stagg - Since you asked, I rap because I prefer. I don't mistrust my belayer. I have had only one belayer on everything from single pitch sport to multipitch alpine for years now.

There are multiple ways to descent and if done safely everything is correct (as Kyle said). I always feel - follow one method and do it perfectly rather than trying to futz around with different techniques. For me it's rappelling.

Anyway, in the essence of keeping it to the point - the point is to best put forth a technique/process for single pitch cragging and cleaning of bolted routes so that people don't die. And in that regards, I think lowering off without untying is the safest method as it minimizes chances of error.

You can do whatever you want (as long as it is safe...)

There is something to be said for picking one technique and perfecting it.

While areas may exist where lowering off is not accepted practice, the Wasatch is not one of them. We've got plenty of people willing to replace worn quicklinks and rings.

I was on the belay end of a fatal fall a year and two days ago associated with cleaning anchors -doesn't matter if the climber is rapping, lowering, threading a bight through and never untying -the important point is that the onus is on you, the climber -you are on your own at the anchors and you need to make sure you have checked and rechecked if need be to make sure everything is 100% correct before you trust yourself to lower down

jackii wrote:

I was on the belay end of a fatal fall a year and two days ago associated with cleaning anchors -doesn't matter if the climber is rapping, lowering, threading a bight through and never untying -the important point is that the onus is on you, the climber -you are on your own at the anchors and you need to make sure you have checked and rechecked if need be to make sure everything is 100% correct before you trust yourself to lower down

With that attitude and record remind me never to climb with you. As a belayer I feel responsible for my climbers' life.  If there is a danger my climber does not seem to be aware of but I am, I will warn my climber or accomodate my climber to keep him/her as safe as I can. I am not of the attitude "you're on your own." Maybe saying the onus is 100% on the climber helps you sleep at night.

Some things are within the climbers' control at the anchors, but what about a situation where the climber is not at the anchors and the belayer takes the climber off belay? Is that onus still on the climber?

I'm sorry but I want my belayer to feel some sense of responsibilty for keeping me safe and I want my climber to climb with confidence not wondering whether I am maybe gonna leave, not looking out for him/her.

On the other hand I have had a climber do stupid things and put me in danger trying to protect him. 

sherb wrote:

With that attitude and record remind me never to climb with you. As a belayer I feel responsible for my climbers' life.  If there is a danger my climber does not seem to be aware of but I am, I will warn my climber or accomodate my climber to keep him/her as safe as I can. I am not of the attitude "you're on your own." Maybe saying the onus is 100% on the climber helps you sleep at night.

Some things are within the climbers' control at the anchors, but what about a situation where the climber is not at the anchors and the belayer takes the climber off belay? Is that onus still on the climber?

I'm sorry but I want my belayer to feel some sense of responsibilty for keeping me safe and I want my climber to climb with confidence not wondering whether I am maybe gonna leave, not looking out for him/her.

On the other hand I have had a climber do stupid things and put me in danger trying to protect him. 

That's a awful lot of conjecture and value judgement based on virtually no information of what happened in that incident or allowing for imprecise expression of what is still a likely traumatic memory.

Rapping or lowering - people are getting injured and killed both ways so technique and method are not really the salient issue here.

Marc801 C wrote:

That's a awful lot of conjecture and value judgement based on virtually no information of what happened in that incident or allowing for imprecise expression of what is still a likely traumatic memory.

It's great to be all fuzzy and never take resposibility in this "it's not your fault" and "everyone gets a trophy" society, but each person should feel responsible for what they can and not say "that's not my job."

I'm not saying she took her climber off belay before the anchor.  That was a hypothetical situation illustrating something out the climber's control but within a belayer's control, not a judgment on the poster.  I don't know what happened, and neither do you, so no one can judge there. 

But I will judge the refusal of a belayer to feel a modicum of responsibility for their climber. If I'm 100% on my own as a climber, then why don't I just free-solo. 

From my point of view, it's messed up how people seem to have more sympathy for witnesses to a fatality than the person who had their life taken away in a painful manner, before finishing everything they wanted to do on this earth. The way things are going, eventually when a distracted/texting motorist accidently hits and kills a pedestrian, everyone will comfort the distracted motorist for witnessing such a traumatic event. 

Now if a pedestrian jumps from an overpass onto the car that is a different matter.

Each person should take responsibility and each situation is unique as to attributing fault. We can't say "every time" it is this person's whole responsibility or 100% their onus/ fault. Depends on what transpired.

In the instance where a belayer is lowering a climber, I really can't see how it could always be 100% on the climber. I certainly would never climb with anyone who felt this way. 

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

In the instance where a belayer is lowering a climber, I really can't see how it could always be 100% on the climber. I certainly would never climb with anyone who felt this way. 

Belayers have their responsibilities but, if you choose to leave terra firma tied to the end of a rope, then it's ultimately all on you until you are back down and untied.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

In the instance where a belayer is lowering a climber, I really can't see how it could always be 100% on the climber. I certainly would never climb with anyone who felt this way. 

Stop with the conjecture. 

We. Have. No. Idea. What. Happened. In. That. Incident.

climbing friend,

someone has perished from this earth? let us all find blame on the other, to make ourownselves feel slight less terrified impermanent nature yourownlife and fact you would for possible be dying next day or next time climbing yes? and holding dear illusion of absolute safety

you are climbing on dear brother

Thank you Healyje-there are many decisions only you, as the climber, can make when venturing onto the vertical world -and when you are cleaning anchors nobody is there to double check your system but you -you don't ask for slack or to be taken off belay until you are sure you are properly attached to the anchors through whatever personal anchor system you use -if you have to untie, you need to ensure the rope is first tied off and secured so it doesnt just drop to the ground-no one is up there with you to ensure you've threaded your belay device properly if you are rapping or retied properly into your harness if you are lowering  or to make sure youve checked and echecked everthing carefully -and nobody but you can make the final decision to untether yourself from the anchors to rap or be lowered