Advice for trad first ascents?

On a hike Wednesday in Northern PA I found a set of very nice cliffs, which was surprising because I had already scanned the area on Mountain Project and it hadn't turned anything up. The cliffs are about 40 feet tall and, at least in the area I explored, contained about 250 feet of curving cliffside, including a 50 ft long boulder that had split off the main cliff. The area is full of crumbly layered stone, but these cliffs are smooth and seem to be much harder, so my hypothesis is they were exposed when the surrounding soft rock was eroded away. Particularly of note are some ceilings which look super difficult.

Most of the climbs would be sport climbs, but I'm not really stoked about doing a bunch of bolting yet. However, on the initial face there are two nice cracks. The one that interests me is a wide finger crack which runs from bottom nearly to the top, with a few supporting face holds around it. I'm thinking this might be within my capabilities as a trad lead and it might be a chance to get my first first ascent.

I'm confident I can work out with the rangers whether climbing there is legal, but I'm wondering if there's any technical guidance on ascending a route for the first time on trad gear safely?

Obviously choss is a big concern. My interest in this climb is particularly because the crack itself looks very solid and if I jam a bunch of cams in deep I'm pretty confident they'd hold. At least at ground level, the crack didn't crumble at all when I jammed in it. The face holds I tried are a mixed bag. The lasts 4 feet of the climb return to the crumbly rock that's typical of the area, but at 4 feet down there's a small ledge I can stand on and a 5inch thick tree I can sling that I think would catch a fall. I'm thinking I could walk up and use a broom at the top to knock off the most egregious loose rock before sending. I do however want to lead this without TRing it first. And of course all of this is dependent on me rehabbing my ankle injury and getting strong enough again to do the climb!

This may seem like a dick comment but in all seriousness...If you have to ask these questions...you should just top rope it.

Why so determined to do a FA trad lead anyway? Don't let your balls get in the way of your brain.

The internet shouldn't be a replacement for a strong mentor. If you tell someone you respect and has been doing FA's in the local community about some new all gear FA's, I'm sure they will be happy to join you. Since nobody but you has seen the rock, it is hard to advise you at all. The rock could be a lot worse than you think. Talking to the rangers may not be the first step you want to take. A lack of understanding/appreciation on their part could get it shut down before you even start. Talk to your local climbing coalition and maybe the regional person for your area from Access Fund.

Jaren Watson wrote:

I think toproping it might be wiser, but not because you're asking questions. Smart people ask questions.

Rather, if the rock is as chossy, or chossier, than you suspect, the risk of pulling loose a brain-rattling block is higher than I personally would be comfortable with unless I had a chance to tr and clean.

Of course, my comfort level isn't the issue here.

I hope it works out the way you'd like!

Jaren, just a question from a noob?

Wouldn't rapping down to look and clean be better? Top rope keeps the rope up, but how does that lessen the rock fall potential, for both climbers?

OP, if it was me, highly unlikely, I'd be hitting up a local who has been around forever. They will know the rock and can eyeball the thing with you. You might even discover they climbed it 20 years back, gain a friend, and hear all the inside stories. That's my experience with an FA here. Super nice guy, too.

Best, OLH

Jaren Watson wrote:

I'm conflating toproping with rapping, as it's implied one would have to build the anchor up top and would therefore begin at the top. I should be more precise. One cleans and trundles top down.

Ah! See? I didn't even think of a top belay, or top down solo. Duh.

Best, (a very tired) Helen

Where is this in PA? Do you have coordinates?

Setup a top rope. Place gear on toprope to make sure you arent going to kill yourself or break your back and or legs. Climb said climb on lead. Profit. 

Option 1: Clean that shite on rappel.  Saddle bag your rope. Use some common sense when tugging on rock, think, "Am I going to pull off this whole pillar or flake?"

                  Pros: Safer

                  Cons: May insult the trad purist sensitivities

Or

Option 2: Get after it ground up.  Mad props and glory await from the choss aficionados. 

                 Pros: Glory   (Very underwhelming IMO)

                 Cons: Increased risk of bad things happening

Jason Todd wrote:

Option 1: Clean that shite on rappel.  Saddle bag your rope. Use some common sense when tugging on rock, think, "Am I going to pull off this whole pillar or flake?"

                  Pros: Safer

                  Cons: May insult the trad purist sensitivities

Or

Option 2: Get after it ground up.  Mad props and glory await from the choss aficionados. 

                 Pros: Glory   (Very underwhelming IMO)

                 Cons: Increased risk of bad things happening

Based on the description of the rock, ground up sounds like a very stupid idea.

There's no right answer of course...it's an age old debate.

My opinion is that trad routes should be done from the ground. Sport routes should be done from above.

Also, just a guess...if you are even considering going GU on something there, the rock probably isn't that bad. But I have low standards (I live in Ventura County).

Alex Bury wrote:

There's no right answer of course...it's an age old debate.

My opinion is that trad routes should be done from the ground. Sport routes should be done from above.

Also, just a guess...if you are even considering going GU on something there, the rock probably isn't that bad. But I have low standards (I live in Ventura County).

I don't think he's asking about that, he just wants tips for development. 

My guess is that it has been climbed. Also, better to ask forgiveness than ask permission if you really want to climb it. This can also screw people over down the line though so you really have to research the land to asses what the policy might be first. As far as safety goes, there is some good advice in the thread. My 2c. 

I don't have any suggestions for doing a FA, but it should be noted that just because something is not on MP, doesn't mean no one has climbed there. I've climbed dozens and dozens of routes that either have ZERO published info, (possibly because the FA parties either didn't want to share, or wanted the area to remain adventurous) or may have been published in a long out-of-print guidebook. I climbed routes where i didnt see any sign of previous development, only to find out the FA was done in 1963 lol. 

although, from the sounds of it (mostly blank face climbing), you're probably looking at virgin rock.

Remember a few things:

1st) As a new leader, you will have huge gaps in your knowledge. Yuge! 

2nd) Any gaps in your knowledge can easily and quickly get you killed. I see this over and over, but as a new person, you don't know what your knowledge gaps are. Doing a FA adds even more. 

3rd) Your many gaps extend to the "I know nothing about the place", the rock, etc etc. 

If you chose to jump on it, make sure you have more pieces than you need. Place them liberally, and don't hang on your gear. Plan on flashing the crack, no hangs no falls. I use to climb with some real hardcore dudes. They didn't run it out on 5.13 cracks to get up them. You don't either. I once saw a fella die from 70' up after he fell or tried to hang and he pulled 4 of his 7 pieces, 2 of which he had already hung on successfully. You will have less pieces between you and the ground and can die in a 30'-40' fall. If you fall and hang while pumped out, check to see if you might stuff another piece in below the piece you are hanging on. Maybe a nut under the cam. Mix it up and use both. I think it's a worthy goal and you've seen the line and we haven't, so if you think you can get it, I say go for it. Knock loose rocks off as you get to them. Given that area has had folks living in it for a long time, I suspect it's been climbed before, but who knows. I just recently discovered what appears to be a 1400' unclimbed slab. It's exciting to head into the unknown and a worthy challenge. 

Last part: have fun! 

Billcoe wrote:

Last part: have fun! 

Or....forget the FA fever and just head point the thing.

Everybody is talking about how you could do this FA when what you should be thinking is; Why do I need to do this FA in the first place. 

My question is; What is your motivation?

Expect choss and loose rock.  Station belayer out of the way.  Go for it... (ground up).

Uh...the answer to this question is obvious.  TR the shit out of it and tell everyone you led it, ground up.  Get dirt on your belayer (not literally) so they won't talk.  Profit.

fa still counts on tr.  if the route is doable and worthy of more, then you can lead it and get that fa as well.

post a pic, it won't reveal location ;)

UR GUNNA DIE?

David Kerkeslager wrote:

if I jam a bunch of cams in deep I'm pretty confident they'd hold.......dependent on me rehabbing my ankle injury....

David, dream big man! BUT be careful...jamming cams in deep is not necessarily a good trad strategy. Take it from someone who has broken his ankle trad climbing when my gear pulled. Most people won't and don't push their limits trad climbing. Usually (not always, there are bold and badass people out there) for the most part people only trad climb when they are confident that they can send the route, confident they can do most of the moves, or confident in MP descriptions of what to expect. You need to be confident your gear will hold, and that you have the correct gear. FA's can be a time consuming and literally messy business. 

Some advice - without seeing the cliff we can't tell you much. But I can give you some things to consider. 1) The top is going to be very important - so lets say you have done this crack/climb/whatever and you get to the top - are you going to be belly flopping through piles of choss (this typically exists on most top-out cliffs) or worse, pulling on it to get over the lip??? 2) Now your friends and shit might want to do it too. Are there any natural anchor pieces up there - trees? boulders? cracks? 

If you want really good Mountain Project scientist's advice, please take some photos of the cliff, and perhaps a zoom in on the 'crack' to see rock quality. 

Anonymous wrote:

Not everything is on MP. Could be in a guidebook and of course have a FA already.

In fact, the VAST majority of established rock climbs are not in MP.

Comprehensive guide to Yosemite will have 3000+ routes in Yosemite Valley. MP lists something like 1/4 of the routes.

Even FAs that take gear only are almost always cleaned first of moss and choss when putting up a free climb. No one wants to battle dirt on an FA if it is at all practical to clean it first.

And yes, even in Yosemite this is true (virtually every short classic was done this way if munge is present). Classics that are as clean as a whistle today were climbed on aid and cleaned or rapped and cleaned before leading free. Butterballs, Lunatic Fringe etc etc.